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Irwin – the protector of Lichess from all chess players villainous

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Re: Irwin – the protector of Lichess from all chess players villainous

#81

I love chess. At my absolute best, I had a over-the-board USCF rating of 2156. I never made it to master no matter how hard I tried. So, ticked off, I gave up serious play. Years go by and while I'm no where near as good these days, I started enjoying playing again. And, then I start running into people online who were clearly using engines instead of their own skills and wits. Now, I only pay with friends and over-t…

I don’t understand this sentiment.

The rating of a player will reflect their strength, regardless of whether they are an unaided human, a full computer, or a human with some heuristic to consult an engine. Whatever the player is doing, their rating will reflect their average strength, and the website matches us to players of similar rating. Whether or not a player is pure human, pure engine, or centaur, we get matched to a player that we have a roughly even chance of beating.

Pure cheaters will quickly skyrocket to the top of the ratings and I will never see them. Hybrid cheaters, who do not have a perfect rating, have a probability of losing because their heuristic to switch to an engine is imperfect, and their rating reflects this imperfection.

Whatever the player is doing, their numeric rating reflects their average strength, and if you have a similar rating you have roughly even chances of beating them.

Re: Irwin – the protector of Lichess from all chess players villainous

#82
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What it looks like to cheat is more than just playing relatively accurate moves. Average move time, centipawn loss over multiple games, blunder/mistake frequency across multiple games, strengh of moves while in time trouble, etc. Cheaters tend to stand out when you look at a short history of games.

That would clearly work for someone who is cheating by letting an engine do all the work, but how about someone who mostly plays the game themselves just using the engine rarely? Give Nakamura a minute with Stockfish any two times of his choosing in each game, and he would have probably won the Candidates. Heck, just give a good player a blunder alert that tells them after they have made a blunder that they have done…

I don't think it's that helpful if you're letting Stockfish make a move or two for you per game, or at least at the level I'm at.

The engine is so good that it often makes moves that are incomprehensible, setting itself up for an attack in n moves where n is often 10+.

If you did want to cheat (but what's the point?) a chrome extension that prevented you from making moves where you lost more then some certain amount of centipawns would be the way to do it.

Re: Irwin – the protector of Lichess from all chess players villainous

#83
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

It is a comprehensive answer. Top human players tend to not make the moves engines make. They also stay relatively strong when under time pressure, where lots of humans reentering moves from a computer fail. Playing someone taking 10 seconds for each move— whether there is only one valid move to capture back or the situation is complicated— you get suspicious. And then when they forget how to play when they have 3 se…

Chess.com has a measurement for how accurate a player plays compared to top engine moves called Computer Aggregated Precision Score (or "CAPS"), and top humans do play incredibly accurately. Magnus has CAPS of 98.36 for example.

https://www.chess.com/article/view/who-was-the-best-world-ch...

Re: Irwin – the protector of Lichess from all chess players villainous

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High level humans and chess engines play differently. You can see commentary on chess YouTube videos when they run across cheaters. Also the chess engines people use are accessible, you can compare what a suspected cheater does with what the cheater does and if they’re exactly the same consistently, you have a pretty strong signal. One of the bigger tells are strange moves that set up a many move series resulting in…

> High level humans and chess engines play differently. You can see commentary on chess YouTube videos when they run across cheaters. That's similar to people describing how to catch other frauds, such as fake Amazon comments or bots. It's medieval 'science': They usually have no evidence of their accuracy, either false negatives (frauds who they overlook) and false positives (people falsely accused of fraud). So it'…

> It's medieval 'science': They usually have no evidence of their accuracy,

I mean, not really. The difference between human and computer chess play-styles is well-documented, to the extent that in the earlier days of chess engines, human chess disciplines were developed to counter the way computers play ("anti-computer chess").

Re: Irwin – the protector of Lichess from all chess players villainous

#85
post #43

I don’t understand what someone gets out of winning chess games by cheating. It would actually make me feel worse about myself.

In a sibling comment there is already a very adequate answer. To give the opposite answer, why you should not cheat. Chess is fun if you play against players of similar strengt. Mostly a score of around 50% will be what you get. If you have a 1400 rating, you can have fun games against 1400 players. If you cheat and go towards 2300 rating, you will still have a score of 50% against other 2300 players. But all the fun…

This assumes that you can't have fun while cheating

You can, but the fun will be different because the challenges are different.

The cheaters aren't playing chess, but some other unnamed game

Re: Irwin – the protector of Lichess from all chess players villainous

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High level humans and chess engines play differently. You can see commentary on chess YouTube videos when they run across cheaters. Also the chess engines people use are accessible, you can compare what a suspected cheater does with what the cheater does and if they’re exactly the same consistently, you have a pretty strong signal. One of the bigger tells are strange moves that set up a many move series resulting in…

It's not that simple. I'm an amateur player (2200 at lichess) but there are plenty of situations where I simply _know_ the best variation. Plenty of chess players analyze their own games using an engine and then use their memory when they are confronted with the same position. The same with opening theory: when I'm using my opening preparation, I'm playing at GM level as these are just the moves played by GMs in that…

> The same with opening theory: when I'm using my opening preparation, I'm playing at GM level as these are just the moves played by GMs in that position, and I did not need to find/calculate them, I just know them.

I wouldn't count that as playing the opening at GM level unless you understand why GMs play those moves.

Around 1990 there was a chess teacher and coach named Richard Shorman that would come to a public chess club that met weekly in Sunnyvale and give free advice to people who had hit plateaus and just couldn't seem to get better no matter how much they played and studied and analyzed. People would show him their games from recent tournaments and he'd analyze them and give advice to get unstuck. This was all out in the open so even those of us who had not brought games could watch and learn.

The people attending these sessions typically ranged from beginners who if they were rated were somewhere under 1000 USCF all the way to people in the 2000-2200 range who had been stuck in that range for years.

On of the big problems Shorman found with pretty much everyone there was that everyone wanted to play like a Karpov or a Kasparov. They studied the opening such players played, memorized all the variants of those openings from ECO, bought and read books on those openings, and studied the games with those openings from top tournaments.

So yeah...they might play 25 moves of a game just like Karpov or Kasparov would have because they are copying from a Karpov of Kasparov game that followed the same line. But what happens when their opponent plays a bad move? If it is so bad there is an immediate tactical refutation maybe they find that (especially if they are around 2100). But at the Karpov/Kasparov level there are a lot of bad moves where the move isn't bad for some short term tactical reason. It's bad because it gives some small weakness that a GM over the course of the next 20 or 30 moves can exploit to eventually allow some winning tactic.

And if your opponent does stay in your opening book to the end...then you just find yourself in a position that is supposed to be good for you, but without knowing why. A GM would know why they are better and how to use that.

It always does eventually come down to tactics, but the deeper you understand tactics the more you start to understand positional concepts and how they make it so certain tactics will or will not work. You can't really understand the positional stuff until you understand the tactical stuff. When you try to play like a GM too soon, you don't yet have the tactical skill to understand the positional stuff, and you get stuck.

One way Shorman put it was something like "Before you can play good chess you have to be good at playing bad chess".

For the lower rated players Shorman would tell them to play gambits. They might not be sound against high rated players but that's not who lower rated players are playing. They should be aiming for unbalanced positions and playing the most aggressive moves that they can't see a tactical refutation for.

As for books, what he'd tell the lower rated players to get was a collection of Morphy's games and skip to the end where it has the games where he gave odds or was playing simuls against amateurs--the games where Morphy needed to crush people.

That's what he meant by "bad chess"...the kind of chess people played in the 19th century.

For higher rated people, like a couple friends of mine who were stuck around 2000-2100, he'd still tell them to play unbalanced openings and play aggressively, but not in the balls out channeling Morphy way that worked for the lower rated people. Gambits were still recommended, but now ones that were not played at top level because the other side could equalize or get a slight advantage too easy rather than because they might actually be unsound.

That got both my friends off the long standing plateaus.

I was only around 1600, and wasn't playing tournament chess anymore (I was instead playing in Go events at the Palo Alto Go Club), so never got a chance to see if Shorman could get me unstuck, but I brought a list of my chess books to Shorman to see which if any I should actually read.

Younger chess players might not realize just how many chess books even casual chess players would accumulate back in the days before internet. Here was my list [1], and this was by no means a large collection for someone around 1600.

Shorman praised a few of them as good books that could teach a lot--and then told me to set them aside and read specific ones of them such as "My System" whenever I hit 2200, and in the meantime go get Morphy's games and skip to the odds games. (I never did get back into tournament chess, except for a couple of events).

I think Shorman's points and methods are still sound, but now with internet and online chess and computers that can automatically generate tactics training from real games we can probably go about applying them more efficiently.

We don't have to seek unbalanced positions and play aggressively in them in order to get tactical practice now--we've got tactics trainers. And now we can play more serious games against good opponents in a week then we might be able to get in a whole year of tournaments in 1990.

[1] https://pastebin.com/mw3q1784

Re: Irwin – the protector of Lichess from all chess players villainous

#88
post #83
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a comprehensive answer. Top human players tend to not make the moves engines make. They also stay relatively strong when under time pressure, where lots of humans reentering moves from a computer fail. Playing someone taking 10 seconds for each move— whether there is only one valid move to capture back or the situation is complicated— you get suspicious. And then when they forget how to play when they have 3 se…

Chess.com has a measurement for how accurate a player plays compared to top engine moves called Computer Aggregated Precision Score (or "CAPS"), and top humans do play incredibly accurately. Magnus has CAPS of 98.36 for example. https://www.chess.com/article/view/who-was-the-best-world-ch...

Note that even his "top engine match" is 85%. This is not a fantastically high number, given that maybe 40% of moves are obvious/must-moves. I bet I match the engine ~60%.

I also think this is his classical games, not rapid, blitz, or bullet.

Top human players tend to make safer, lower variance moves than things engines prove super safe on evaluation. They may give up a few centipawns for ease of analysis.

Re: Irwin – the protector of Lichess from all chess players villainous

#89
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that simple. I'm an amateur player (2200 at lichess) but there are plenty of situations where I simply _know_ the best variation. Plenty of chess players analyze their own games using an engine and then use their memory when they are confronted with the same position. The same with opening theory: when I'm using my opening preparation, I'm playing at GM level as these are just the moves played by GMs in that…

> The same with opening theory: when I'm using my opening preparation, I'm playing at GM level as these are just the moves played by GMs in that position, and I did not need to find/calculate them, I just know them. I wouldn't count that as playing the opening at GM level unless you understand why GMs play those moves. Around 1990 there was a chess teacher and coach named Richard Shorman that would come to a public c…

> everyone wanted to play like a Karpov or a Kasparov.

I wonder if there's a modern analog to this with how super GM styles have mostly converged. Trying to play like Magnus is as silly as trying to play like an engine. Even the most aggressive players (Nepo, Shak?, Rapport) aren't so wildly different in style.

Maybe the 2010-2020s version of this is bandwagoning onto popular theory, like all the Najdorf lines I know I'll never understand.

Re: Irwin – the protector of Lichess from all chess players villainous

#90
post #83
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a comprehensive answer. Top human players tend to not make the moves engines make. They also stay relatively strong when under time pressure, where lots of humans reentering moves from a computer fail. Playing someone taking 10 seconds for each move— whether there is only one valid move to capture back or the situation is complicated— you get suspicious. And then when they forget how to play when they have 3 se…

Chess.com has a measurement for how accurate a player plays compared to top engine moves called Computer Aggregated Precision Score (or "CAPS"), and top humans do play incredibly accurately. Magnus has CAPS of 98.36 for example. https://www.chess.com/article/view/who-was-the-best-world-ch...

I think that as a measure of skill vs. a computer that statistic doesn't tell you all that much. Note that even in that measure Magnus only picks the top move ~85% of the time, and that includes many moves where the top move is "obvious" which will inflate the average a bit. And it needs to be kept in mind that Magnus cannot win against a modern computer, so clearly that 85% only means so much, computer play is still on a whole different level from human play.

Beyond that, time is a very important factor, running out the clock is one of the most effective ways to win against cheating opponents. Magnus only finds the top move ~85% of the time and takes probably 10x to 100x the time to do it. And like the other commenter noted, variance in the move time is an extremely obvious tell. Magnus will blitz out certain moves (even in classical chess) and then think for ~40 minutes in other complicated positions. A computer can do both positions in basically the same amount of time, and cheating players typically don't know when they "should" be thinking vs. playing fast.

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