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The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

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Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#81

Post by BossingAround »

nivenkos wrote: post #47
seibelj wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A common criticism is that “but you get so much more for your taxes in Europe”. I have a counterpoint - you get the choice of what you want to buy in the US. I’d rather keep more of my take-home pay and do without certain services, or better yet choose the provider (and quality / expense) of such services if I want them. Somehow the bureaucracy in the US is still massive, so I can only imagine what far higher tax rat…

Yeah, and for most working professionals you get sweet FA. Like here in Sweden we pay 40% income tax, 25% sales tax and still have to pay about $30 for each doctor visit. Dentistry is not included in the state health coverage. Neither are annual checkups of any kind, so diagnosis can be difficult and slow, etc. In Sweden, those taxes are just going to those who are lucky enough to have first-hand subsidised apartment…

I am not disputing what you're saying about your healthcare system, but if you get hit by a car, I would guess that nobody will be afraid to call an ambulance for fear of the cost. The same cannot be said of the US, where people with emergencies take ubers to the hospital.

You might take an uber to the hospital in Sweden too, out of convenience, but not out of fear for being stuck with a $1000 bill.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#82

Post by FredPret »

Dove wrote: post #66

I found this fascinatingly counterintuitive. I would normally expect that a broader market leads to lower prices for commodity goods. If I can only buy candy from the vendor at the movie theater, I expect to pay a higher price than if I can buy it from all the stores in the region, which I expect to be higher again than if I can import it from anywhere in the world. The reverse is true for developers? The companies w…

By this logic, the best deal for a good developer will almost always be to start a company

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#83

Post by ido »

yrgulation wrote: post #70
ido wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Austria is a lot less variable than the UK, and Vienna is not really the most expensive city there at all (generally the further west you go the more expensive it gets). I'm pretty sure a lot of the smaller cities like Salzburg and Innsbruck are actually more expensive than Vienna and not at all certain Vienna is much or at all above the Austrian average (or at least urban average).

With the risk of sounding rude i am not even sure why austria is part of this debate as its totally irrelevant on the tech scene.

It’s simply a Westen European country I lived in, sorry I never lived and went to Uni + worked in the Netherlands to give a more topical example. My point was that borders are unfair in terms of compensation not just to Western Europeans but to a lot(most?) other people in the world outside [west coast/big city) Americans. And that true globalization will equalize things not only upward.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#84

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

yrgulation wrote: post #62
988747 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree that this isn't likely to be true at population level - I was talking about Software Developers specifically. Disagree on "much higher standard of education" - even if Austria comes on top, it's just barely, not by a lot.

I dont know where op gets their stats but pay in austria is by no means competitive. I know of a romanian dude who interviewed for a company there. Pompous session, ties, suit and the stench of a rigid hierarchy. Once they made their offer he laughed and told them he’d earn twice as much for the same (tech) job in romania. Perhaps an isolated case but DACH countries have an inflated sense of superiority not matching…

>Once they made their offer he laughed and told them he’d earn twice as much for the same (tech) job in romania. Perhaps an isolated case

Definitely not an isolated case. Austrian tech companies generally pay shit and are usually pretty backwards and burocratic due to the management heavy culture from the 20th century factories (WFH is frowned upon and your time in the office is tracked instead of looking at employee output) and highly conservative culture in general (everyone still uses cash). Also they put far too much value in having advanced degrees from their local universities rather than looking at experience and practical skills, so you end up in credential inflation town with colleagues who scuff at your code or technical opinions, because they "have a PhD from TU Sturmfart, and you don't".

That explains why they have virtually no internationally successful local SW companies (unlike other small EU companies like Netherlands or Finland, or even poorer Estonia), and instead have just a bunch of mom and pop webshops, crusty ERP boyshops for local factories, and their outdated banking industry that can't even get stock trading and banking apps right and instead need to rely on the German Flatex and N26. Their only unicorn, Bitpanda, recently fired half the workforce, which they easily could because Austrian employees have virtually no protection against termination, so your employer can fire you without any reason with the 1-3 month notice period. The cherry on top is that non-competes are legal here and employers can choose to enforce them, which, as we know, is what made SV the cradle of innovation. /s I rest my case.

QOL is generally good there and you can live well there, provided you do anything but tech, ideally work for the state or government enterprises and coast till retirement on your inherited real estate.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#85

Post by siva7 »

ido wrote: post #4

Ok let me make a probably very unpopular comment here: their 3rd point lists "companies benchmarking against all regional or global companies" but in fact what they mean is "companies benchmarking against the highest paying US tech hubs". I assure you "all regional or global companies" also include Vietnamese companies paying junior devs $300 per month - what is the advantage of the European engineer that is worth pa…

If you think a dev is a code monkey then yes, it doesn’t matter if you hire someone from vietnam or seattle for your US business. If you’re actually looking for a software engineer then i have bad news for you: professional software development is all about communication (with customers, requirements engineers, other developers and so on). That’s why you are paying them ten times more, so they have a chance to understand your business domain and can consult you on technical decisions. Otherwise every manager and business owner on earth, including me, would hire just the Vietnamese dev instead of the 10 times more expensive US dev.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#86

Post by acchow »

varispeed wrote: post #60
ido wrote: post #4

Ok let me make a probably very unpopular comment here: their 3rd point lists "companies benchmarking against all regional or global companies" but in fact what they mean is "companies benchmarking against the highest paying US tech hubs". I assure you "all regional or global companies" also include Vietnamese companies paying junior devs $300 per month - what is the advantage of the European engineer that is worth pa…

> what is the advantage of the European engineer that is worth paying >=10x as much? It is very simple - cost of insurance. It is much easier to persuade a worker making $300 a month to leak company secrets than someone making $20k a month. Plus workers in such countries may be incentivised (or have no choice but to do it) to spy on behalf of their government. If your company is doing something remotely serious, you…

This makes no sense. If you want to pay to keep secrecy, why not just raise their salary by 9x to keep them quiet?

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#87

Post by acchow »

FredPret wrote: post #82
Dove wrote: post #66

I found this fascinatingly counterintuitive. I would normally expect that a broader market leads to lower prices for commodity goods. If I can only buy candy from the vendor at the movie theater, I expect to pay a higher price than if I can buy it from all the stores in the region, which I expect to be higher again than if I can import it from anywhere in the world. The reverse is true for developers? The companies w…

By this logic, the best deal for a good developer will almost always be to start a company

That is indeed always the best deal for every developer who wants to be an entrepreneur. But it's not for everyone - some people just want to code.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#88

Post by ido »

siva7 wrote: post #85
ido wrote: post #4

Ok let me make a probably very unpopular comment here: their 3rd point lists "companies benchmarking against all regional or global companies" but in fact what they mean is "companies benchmarking against the highest paying US tech hubs". I assure you "all regional or global companies" also include Vietnamese companies paying junior devs $300 per month - what is the advantage of the European engineer that is worth pa…

If you think a dev is a code monkey then yes, it doesn’t matter if you hire someone from vietnam or seattle for your US business. If you’re actually looking for a software engineer then i have bad news for you: professional software development is all about communication (with customers, requirements engineers, other developers and so on). That’s why you are paying them ten times more, so they have a chance to unders…

So you’re saying the Dutch in the article shouldn’t complain that they earn less than Americans then?

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#89

Post by logifail »

varispeed wrote: post #60
ido wrote: post #4

Ok let me make a probably very unpopular comment here: their 3rd point lists "companies benchmarking against all regional or global companies" but in fact what they mean is "companies benchmarking against the highest paying US tech hubs". I assure you "all regional or global companies" also include Vietnamese companies paying junior devs $300 per month - what is the advantage of the European engineer that is worth pa…

> what is the advantage of the European engineer that is worth paying >=10x as much? It is very simple - cost of insurance. It is much easier to persuade a worker making $300 a month to leak company secrets than someone making $20k a month. Plus workers in such countries may be incentivised (or have no choice but to do it) to spy on behalf of their government. If your company is doing something remotely serious, you…

> If your company is doing something remotely serious [..]

(Sorry I have to ask this) but what types of companies are you talking about?

Uber? Netflix? Spotify?

For those maybe, just maybe, the secret sauce isn't actually secret any more, it was simply cheap VC money subsidising all our rides/viewing/listening.[0][1][2][3]

[0] https://slate.com/business/2022/05/uber-subsidy-lyft-cheap-r... [1] https://financialpost.com/investing/investing-pro/investors-... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/08/technology/farewell-mille... [3] https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-uber-ip...

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#90

Post by EUROCARE »

yrgulation wrote: post #62
988747 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree that this isn't likely to be true at population level - I was talking about Software Developers specifically. Disagree on "much higher standard of education" - even if Austria comes on top, it's just barely, not by a lot.

I dont know where op gets their stats but pay in austria is by no means competitive. I know of a romanian dude who interviewed for a company there. Pompous session, ties, suit and the stench of a rigid hierarchy. Once they made their offer he laughed and told them he’d earn twice as much for the same (tech) job in romania. Perhaps an isolated case but DACH countries have an inflated sense of superiority not matching…

This matches my experience, and also consider: I'm paying less than 8% income tax and health and social insurance combined on my income in the CEE country where I live. What's the tax and insurance in DE and A?
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