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Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

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Re: Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

#81

Post by 908B64B197 »

radarsat1 wrote: post #30

I'm frankly super confused about salaries right now. Currently job hunting in Europe and the other day when a recruiter asked how much I was looking for I gave my current salary as a minimum of 65 euros/h and the recruiter kind of chuckled and told me that if I'm a good match I could ask for like 90. Okay, sounds great. So a few days later I was having an initial interview for a senior ML position and when asked how…

> and basically ended the interview on the spot. Told me that was more than they pay any of their senior positions.

You dodged a bullet. If they can't afford talent it's either that the business isn't doing good or that they voluntarily don't want to pay for talent (meaning they are going to go to competitors eating their lunch).

> In any case, just ranting. What's a good rate for a senior SWE or ML engineer in Europe these days? What can I get away with asking for without getting this reaction?

Same as in SV for SV caliber talent. The run of the mill recruiter isn't authorized to sign a contract with these numbers but it's getting incredibly common.

> Also, what's up with people asking this question in the first conversation?

Honestly, you want to have it as early as possible and not waste time with low balling firms. They can hires from body shops if they think they can get away with cheap devs.

Re: Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

#82

Post by Ekaros »

user568439 wrote: post #49
radarsat1 wrote: post #30

I'm frankly super confused about salaries right now. Currently job hunting in Europe and the other day when a recruiter asked how much I was looking for I gave my current salary as a minimum of 65 euros/h and the recruiter kind of chuckled and told me that if I'm a good match I could ask for like 90. Okay, sounds great. So a few days later I was having an initial interview for a senior ML position and when asked how…

I think the recruiter meant 90€ as freelance and you asked 100k as permanent? In Europe de permanent contract includes a lot of benefits and a big risk for the company: holidays, unemployment coverage, sick coverage and normally other things like bonus, pension, phone and sometimes medical insurance and car (consultants). For the rates I’ve seen first hand, 90€/hour of freelance corresponds to 70-80k hired salary

Also decent chunk of difference comes from how freelancers are responsible for their own employer taxes. So the costs that are essentially invisible to someone receiving a wage.

Re: Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

#83

Post by ellen364 »

908B64B197 wrote: post #80
ellen364 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Software is an extremely scalable business where the marginal cost of every copy beyond the first is nearly zero. and > If you can drive the cost of doing business and your inputs toward zero almost any business idea could theoretically make a profit... but real markets are not so accommodating. I agree with many of your points, but these vary by product. For example, FAANGs sometimes have applications where some i…

> I’ve also noticed that FAANGs sometimes outsource work that doesn’t scale as easily. The contracting companies are either in cheaper countries or they’ll accept a smaller profit margin. Or both. The devs and analysts at those companies indirectly contribute to the FAANG’s product, but don’t get the bumper salaries. It's also lower complexity tasks. Cleaning-up training data or monitoring a manual test pipeline isn'…

I suspect that’s often true, but the outsourced work isn’t always as routine as cleaning up training data. E.g. I worked at a company that provides “real-time transit data feeds for journey planners”, to quote the marketing literature. The company’s publicly mentioned customers include Google and Microsoft.

I’d guess (and it is a guess) that big companies like to outsource that kind of work so their devs only have to deal with the tidier data? And perhaps also because dev salaries in the UK are so much lower.

Re: Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

#84

Post by tompark »

He clarified later: https://twitter.com/typesfast/status/1537151707141918720

   My point was not that engineers are overpaid. That's not for me to judge. Only that many business models won't support those rates. That's the CEO's fault not the engineers. See for example: https://twitter.com/typesfast/status/1537151707141918720/photo/1
His original statement ("It might be that many software business models don't work when engineers cost $400k/year.") is pretty obvious.

Suppose you have a website that caters to competitive Mahjong players, and earn revenue based on a combination of pro subscriptions, micropayments, adverts, and sponsorships. If your Trailing Twelve Month revenue is $120K, you couldn't afford an engineer who costs $100k/yr, much less $400k.

Re: Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

#85

Post by boeingUH60 »

betaby wrote: post #63
unicornporn wrote: post #51

The prime minister in my country (SWE, also known as Sweden) makes 170k/yr per year. So what do you think? :-D

That´s a very easy job in my books. Also PM most likely has free housing, cars,maids and so on.

And free travel, free security, aides to delegate many tasks to, etc.

I abhor politics, but I wouldn’t mind being a PM for maybe a week, just to have the feeling of everything around you well taken care of, thereby giving you the freedom to focus solely on your job.

Re: Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

#86

Post by projektfu »

ellen364 wrote: post #69
radarsat1 wrote: post #30

I'm frankly super confused about salaries right now. Currently job hunting in Europe and the other day when a recruiter asked how much I was looking for I gave my current salary as a minimum of 65 euros/h and the recruiter kind of chuckled and told me that if I'm a good match I could ask for like 90. Okay, sounds great. So a few days later I was having an initial interview for a senior ML position and when asked how…

Recruitment is bizarre right now. I chat to recruiters sometimes and in the last few months have specifically asked about salaries in the UK. Essentially, “What’s the going rate for a web dev with 5 years experience?” The answers have ranged from “£45k-55k” to “£100k-130k”. The most common response seems to be “£70k-80k”. And everyone who’s answered seemed confident they know “the market rate”. Sometimes people even…

You might want to use a Wideband-Delphi method of estimating. Have everyone give you an estimate with their reason. Then send each one the list of estimates with the reasons attached and give them an opportunity to adjust their estimate. They will start to converge.

Re: Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

#87

Post by fayalargeau »

tompark wrote: post #84

He clarified later: https://twitter.com/typesfast/status/1537151707141918720 My point was not that engineers are overpaid. That's not for me to judge. Only that many business models won't support those rates. That's the CEO's fault not the engineers. See for example: https://twitter.com/typesfast/status/1537151707141918720/photo/1 His original statement ("It might be that many software business models don't work when…

completely missed that. thanks for sharing.

Re: Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

#88

Post by projektfu »

cactus2093 wrote: post #70
radarsat1 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

really appreciate the numbers, thanks. Indeed 65 is what I said I make as a freelancer, tried to explain that I would have different expectations as an employee but I had no idea what number to say, so this is very helpful. That said I find it crazy how big the difference is on these two conditions and am struggling a bit now to justify why I would want to go back to being an employee. Maybe I'll drop the idea. On th…

It's a learning experience! Don't feel bad, now you've learned a good lesson for future interviews. > That said I find it crazy how big the difference is on these two conditions and am struggling a bit now to justify why I would want to go back to being an employee As an American, I gotta say it seems like the benefits of being a full-time employee in Europe only really make sense if you plan on slacking off. It's ve…

I did some consulting for a large employer in the UK and found that all of their programmers were contract employees. I asked one guy about it (an American) and he said that he makes so much he can spend 6 months traveling each year. At the time full-time jobs were pretty low-paid in the UK relative to US standards. I wondered if the flexibility the large employer got was worth the approximately 200-300% premium it was paying to hire contractors, although perhaps talented devs wouldn't work for the lower stable wage.

Re: Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

#89

Post by projektfu »

throwawayacc2 wrote: post #7

There is no such thing as overpaid, by definition. You are paid as much as you are paid. The only time you are “overpaid” is when the payments department makes and error and wires more money to your account than your contract entails you too. Baring that corner case you are paid whatever amount you negotiated. If the employer feels like they’re not getting a good deal, they’re welcome to seek recourse within in confi…

You're overpaid as well when you are asked to take a pay-cut, quit instead, and cannot find employment again at the previous rate.

Re: Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

#90

Post by 908B64B197 »

ellen364 wrote: post #83
908B64B197 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’ve also noticed that FAANGs sometimes outsource work that doesn’t scale as easily. The contracting companies are either in cheaper countries or they’ll accept a smaller profit margin. Or both. The devs and analysts at those companies indirectly contribute to the FAANG’s product, but don’t get the bumper salaries. It's also lower complexity tasks. Cleaning-up training data or monitoring a manual test pipeline isn'…

I suspect that’s often true, but the outsourced work isn’t always as routine as cleaning up training data. E.g. I worked at a company that provides “real-time transit data feeds for journey planners”, to quote the marketing literature. The company’s publicly mentioned customers include Google and Microsoft. I’d guess (and it is a guess) that big companies like to outsource that kind of work so their devs only have to…

> I worked at a company that provides “real-time transit data feeds for journey planners”, to quote the marketing literature. The company’s publicly mentioned customers include Google and Microsoft.

So they aren't outsourcing dev work, they are basically buying access to the data feed.

> And perhaps also because dev salaries in the UK are so much lower.

Not for SV caliber talent.

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