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Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans
81–90 of 148 posts
Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
Uhuh. They have more neurons. This does say exactly nothing about "smart". There's also the small matter that while dogs have more neurons than cats in general, they have significantly less neurons allocated to their cortex. The study you likely refer to talks about total brain matter. It is, in short, a dog lovers argument.
I don't really have a dog in this fight, no pun intended, but you would be wrong. The only modern study that looked at neurons of carnivorous animals including cats/dogs found that dogs have nearly twice the number of neurons in the cerebral cortex, and the ratio of cortical neurons to overall neurons is also higher (~20% vs ~23%). https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnana.2017.0011...
I know very little about brains in general but I would guess that the number of synapses (connections between nuerons) has more to do with intelligence than the number of neurons themselves. Could be that this scales exponentially. I think it's much easier to count neurons tho, seems like we have good numbers for lots of species.
Worth considering that African elephants have 3x the nuerons we do, Killer Whales twice as many only counting the cerebellum.
Cool list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of_n...
Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans
#83The difference between modern humans and other animals, even extinct humans, is not the presence of intelligence, it is language.
Just compared to other extinct humans, we are more social and more violent.
I believe what makes humans different is this: language and music and religion. This makes humans something bigger than just the individual.
See: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4947341/#!po=0....
Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans
#84The difference between modern humans and other animals, even extinct humans, is not the presence of intelligence, it is language. Just compared to other extinct humans, we are more social and more violent. I believe what makes humans different is this: language and music and religion. This makes humans something bigger than just the individual. See: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4947341/#!po=0....
Indeed there are conceptual and communications skills we possess that no animals approach. The problem I find in these debates is that we each have different ideas what terms like intelligence, understanding and consciousness mean.
Consciousness is particularly difficult because we use it in so many different ways. If you look in most dictionaries you will see about half a dozen different definitions ranging from meanings equivalent to perception, all the way up to awareness of ones self and the world, or self-reflection.
Personally I see no reason to suppose that the capacity for self-reflection depends on the cognitive skills underlying language, rather it seems to me it's likely to be the other way around. If this is correct, then I expect our ancestors evolved self-reflection before language, and therefore other animals might also have developed that capability without having language in the sophisticated form we possess.
Viewed in this way, if animals, particularly higher mammals and primates exhibit behaviour consistent with self-reflection and self-awareness, it seems reasonable to me that they may have inherited this capacity from a common ancestor of ours. That's especially so if many different species exhibit this trait. It seems unlikely that such behaviours would evolve completely independently in so many different species that are all related to each other and share so many common neurological features.
Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans
#85"There is no fundamental difference between man and the higher mammals in their mental faculties".
Or as Nim Chimpsky used to say: "Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you."
A lot of work remains to be done before we can give a full scientific account of the human mind in relation to the rest of nature. It seems quite narrow minded to me, fanatical even, to deny a priori that such an account, if at all possible, would confirm a transcendental distinction between humans and the rest of nature; or would feature non-material aspects.
Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
I feel like most people are like one or two a-ha insights away from veganism. Intelligence and awareness definitely has a spectrum across the animal kingdom but I’m not so sure about sentience itself. Do fish feel pain? Do insects experience fear? It is very difficult to to empathize with a spider or imagine that a scorpion could feel contentment, but as we we climb up the kingdom to vertebrates and especially mammal…
>Cows are very intelligent, have long term memories, and feel desolation when their calves are taken away from them Have you ever met cows in the farm/paddock? Most cows I've come across are huge assholes, like the kind of person that hangs around a bar trying to start fights. In my mind they deserve to be eaten.
You think people that hang around bars trying to start fights deserve to be eaten?
Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans
#87"There is no fundamental difference between man and the higher mammals in their mental faculties". Or as Nim Chimpsky used to say: "Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." A lot of work remains to be done before we can give a full scientific account of the human mind in relation to the rest of nature. It seems quite narrow minded to me, fanatical even, to deny a priori that such…
This reminds me of the debate of the origins of the Universe.
Some religions maintained that the Universe at some point did not exist.
Some scientists up to very recently maintained (perhaps in opposition to religious views) that the Universe always existed.
I'm of the view that animals are a lot smarter than we'd regularly think, but that there is indeed something very special about human intelligence.
My prediction would be that we won't be able to uplift even a chimpanzee.
And that would be an awesome and debate ending experiment -- if human intelligence is nothing special and it's just a few mutations away from a chimpanzee, just patch the chimpanzee genome with the intelligence genes and see what happens.
Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have a 145 kg bench press with 17 inch biceps. How about you?
Apart from selfishly loving the taste of meat, convenience of nutrition for sport (ie getting 200g protein on 2500 cals or less) is really the only justification I have for meat consumption. Any suggested reading for someone like me?
A Plea for the Animals,
Eating Animals,
or Animal Liberation
I’d start with Eating Animals. The author started the book to explore how his food ends up on his plate, but the book becomes about his gradual transition to veganism as he learns about animal agriculture.
A Plea for the Animals should be the second one. Written by a neurologist/monk who eloquently makes the argument that there is nothing in our biology which justifies subjugating animal.
Then Animal Liberation if you’re looking for a classic. It’s older, a bit more esoteric, but decent.
Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I find myself shocked by how little regard people have for the intelligence of other animals. If people readily accepted the intelligence of many mammals, much less other animals, they would have to confront some very serious cognitive dissonance and moral dilemmas. That said, I've found many dog folks are super dismissive of the idea of cats being smart and I'm not sure why that is. Perhaps part of the problem is…
> If people readily accepted the intelligence of many mammals, much less other animals, they would have to confront some very serious cognitive dissonance and moral dilemmas. Not sure about that, lot of people are completely fine with human being killed for several reasons (punishment for robbery just to give you an example).
Sure, but people generally have a problem watching extreme senseless violence perpetrated against innocent people, which is more analogous to what happens to the animals that carnists eat.
Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree with your friend. Dogs have around twice as many cortical neurons as cats, and it shows. Interestingly, raccoons, which are the size of cats, have a comparable number of neurons in the cortex as dogs. And act like it as well. Which isn't to say cats are like, dumb creatures, and it's fine you like them more. Dogs are smarter though, according to me, your buddy, and zoologists, who unlike the three of us know…
Raccoons and bears have pretty impressive puzzle solving skills, as anyone who has tried to keep them out of a garbage can will note. Although bear strength is a bit of a crutch, there's also the whole escalating food puzzle game between them and hikers. Cats, I think people just mistake their uncooperative nature for some sort of mysterious wise aloofness.
It's not surprising that a crepuscular ambush predator is less intelligent than pack predators, it would be surprising if it were the other way around.
It's fascinating the replies I get claiming I must be a dog person. It's really... telling... when someone conflates intelligence and moral worth like that. I like cats. I'm not going to pretend they're as smart as dogs just because I like them.