Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 136 posts

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#81

Post by minsc_and_boo »

pmoriarty wrote: post #16
basisword wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It gives me hope that the left is. If the left shifts more central and becomes more palatable to centre right people than the far right, then the right also needs to shift.

This reminds me of a comic strip I saw during Obama's term, when he was hailed as a great compromiser. It showed Obama standing opposite a Republican, and the Republican saying: "If you take a step towards me, I'll take a step towards you." So Obama takes a step towards the Republican, who doesn't move and just says again: "If you take a step towards me, I'll take a step towards you."

AKA shifting the Overton Window:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#82

Post by pmoriarty »

Siddarth1977 wrote: post #66
pmoriarty wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the left has gone so far left that everyone looks like they are far right comparatively." When people say stuff like this I wonder what planet they're from. It's not like the US even has a viable Socialist party, never mind a Marxist or Communist one. I've never heard a Democrat call for the abolishment of private property or a revolution of the proletariat. In America, dreams of that sort died with end of the 60's…

So hurray, people learned from the horrors of the 20th century that socialism inevitably leads to rampant corruption, suffering and genocide? Socialism caused 100 deaths for every death the Nazis caused, I don't understand how we don't see someone advocating for it as equally appalling to someone making pro-Nazi statements. Whether you look at the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Yugoslavia, Venez…

"people learned from the horrors of the 20th century that socialism inevitably leads to rampant corruption, suffering and genocide?"

That's not due to socialism but totalitarianism and corruption.

There have been plenty of corrupt totalitarians on the right too, but apparently no one's learned any lessons there, except how to emulate them.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#83

Post by joshuamorton »

Siddarth1977 wrote: post #51
dathinab wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but the left didn't shift left in a relevant degree, they are more right then most center parties in the EU. Its right which shifted so far right that it might seem the left shifted away. A lot of things coming from the republican party, of bring tolerated by the republican party on recent years are uncanily similar to how Hitler proceeded before he started mass murdering (like in the rethoric of speach and willingne…

If this is what you believe (and not just rhetoric you're employing to sway people that you know to be untrue) then maybe it's time to take a step back and widen your world view and broaden your sources of information. It's of course always problematic to oversimplify the thousands of different issues and perspectives into simple "left vs right" or "conservative vs liberal" buckets, but overall, it's completely accur…

> winning on federal power expanding and state power receding, winning on narrowing free speech, winning on reducing religious freedoms

With the current supreme court? This is incredible! Federal power has been in decline for a decade (and really since like the 40s/50s with the good exception of incorporation), there's been no reduction in religious freedom in decades, even when it conflicts with civil rights, and free speech remains strongly protected at the federal level, though republican governor's keep trying to change that!

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#84

Post by travisathougies »

dathinab wrote: post #49
Auracle wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the left didn't shift left in a relevant degree, they are more right then most center parties in the EU. This is said a lot online, but I'd like some concrete examples. Our abortion laws are (for now) more lax than almost all European countries, and the US left still wants more. Our tax system is more progressive than many European countries, but our rich still need to pay their "fair share." The left in the US…

> Our abortion laws are (for now) more lax than almost all European countries, The way it currently looks is the right want to ban abortion no matter what context. Which is far far more strict then most EU countries. And the current legality status is in a legal gray are as far as I know, which is also worse then in many EU countries, through in practice in some states might not. And sure there are EU countries which…

> The way it currently looks is the right want to ban abortion no matter what context.

While it's true that some republican run states are going this direction. If we look at the original case that will likely lead the SC to overturn Roe v Wade (again, it hasn't even happened yet), would be a European style ban, where abortion is allowed up until 15 weeks (this is a typical European cutoff). I believe the Mississippi law also has exceptions based on maternal health or fetal disability, which in countries like Germany, would actually require government approval in the late second and third trimester [1]. After the Roe v Wade leak, only a few GOP states have attempted to ban abortion outright. Popular GOP governors like Ron Desantis, whose name keeps coming up for 2024, signed a Mississippi style 15-week ban in Florida, instead of a full on ban.

So, while it's certainly true same in the party want a 100% ban, it's also true that the mainstream ones (again, DeSantis is extremely popular, so is a good indicator of 'centrist' republican thought) are not going that direction and instead making our laws more similar to Western European countries.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#85

Post by AdrianB1 »

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #21
basisword wrote: post #6

I hope this is the beginning of a shift back towards the centre on both the right and the left.

Just for an additional perspective, for most of the world's democracies both the US republicans and democrats are very much on the right-wing side of the political spectrum. I am not saying there is anything wrong with American Democrats but if you look at actual policies they would be labeled centre right anywhere else in the world. As an American friend once put it to me "Americans believe luck is made, so social h…

It is a matter of baseline. Comparing to classical liberals (right wing), everyone today is very left. Comparing to Western Europe, that is very left, someone less to the left is relatively to the right, but it does not make it a right-wing, just a more moderate left. It's all about where you set the reference point, at the classical political left-right center or at the current one. The world is continuously moving left for 150 years.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#86

Post by travisathougies »

Auracle wrote: post #53
seizethegdgap wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abortion is about to become illegal in almost half the country, police departments overwhelmingly haven't been defunded, congress didn't pass an infrastructure bill, the federal minimum wage is still $7.25, there's still been no repercussions for 1/6, trans kids can't get proper healthcare in 2 republican States (and growing), there's no universal healthcare or student debt forgiveness, and there's still no meaningfu…

>Abortion is about to become illegal in almost half the country A Supreme Court decision reversing one that was dubiously made in the first place. It'll be interesting to see how many of those states will roll back abortion from being illegal to something more reasonable. >Police departments overwhelmingly haven't been defunded An incredibly far left idea >Congress didn't pass an infrastructure bill It's pretty far l…

> Student debt forgiveness is an incredibly far left idea

Student debt forgiveness is an incredibly aristocratic idea by which the slowly establishing american aristocracy seeks to tax peasants for their failed lavish lifestyles. It's not 'far left', and it shows just how duplicitous the supposed 'left' in this country has gotten. They're openly advocating for wealth transfers from the poor to the rich, and are attempting to portray themselves as the sole party of empathy, working class sympathies, etc. It's really something to watch from the outside.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#87

Post by zozbot234 »

welterde wrote: post #74
Siddarth1977 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So hurray, people learned from the horrors of the 20th century that socialism inevitably leads to rampant corruption, suffering and genocide? Socialism caused 100 deaths for every death the Nazis caused, I don't understand how we don't see someone advocating for it as equally appalling to someone making pro-Nazi statements. Whether you look at the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Yugoslavia, Venez…

Good start mixing together communism with socialism (which can nicely coexist with capitalism). And then let me add a nice data point that won't fit your nice narrative: Sweden. While not quite as socialist nowadays compared to maybe in the sixties, but it is still quite a lot more socialist than the US and is actually a pretty decent country to live and work in.

That's a nice point. Some people in the U.S. do need to be constantly reminded that "Socialism with Scandinavian Characteristics" is not authoritarian or anti-capitalist at all! But that's more like the exception that proves the rule.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#88

Post by thomassmith65 »

dathinab wrote: post #39
AdrianB1 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is toleration of fascism? Most people I talked to don't even know what fascism is, but they use the term very liberally. Do you have national-socialists in California?

facism is far-right authoritarian ultra-nationalism national-socialist are one movement which is fascist, they are by far not the only one. (Nazis are fascist with socialist paint coat). The US never had (internally) a problem with nazis, I think. But it does have a problem with white supremacist. It also does have a problem with religious extremist, most times Christian based. Both of this groups have quite a bit of…

  The US never had (internally) a problem with nazis
You're probably aware that America had a substantial minority of Nazis around the outbreak of WWII (https://youtu.be/NC1MNGFHR58). Once the US entered the war, the government definitely (and unsurprisingly) considered the threat of Nazi-sympathizers a real problem.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#89

Post by SllX »

inglor_cz wrote: post #73
ahoy wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in this land of topsy turvy logic, high crime stats is a good thing, because that means they're being reported?

No, the real (not topsy-turvy) logic behind GPs statement is "garbage in, garbage out", or "you can't trust a statistics unless you know how reliable the inputs are".

You basically can’t trust statistics without statistical literacy, the source data and the time to interpret it.

Lies, damn lies and statistics is still applicable and relevant today, if conveniently forgotten.

Just to bring something else to this discussion, Chesa didn’t run on statistics. He ran on a soft-on-crime message and delivered. Since this is an elected office, he didn’t answer to the Mayor, so he didn’t benefit from the Mayor’s cover but also wasn’t in the same chain of command as SFPD, so when the voters turned, they turned directly on him and this being an elected office, he just didn’t have a good story to tell or the support he needed from the communities he needed it from. The real statistics don’t even matter at that point because statistics don’t run for office or win elections.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#90

Post by ajhurliman »

avalys wrote: post #17
ahoy wrote: post #2

This SF district attorney recall thing is a really good example of the media's power to manufacture a story. Even if you accept the premise that crime stats rise or fall in response to DA policies, those stats mostly fell during Boudin's tenure. But if you show the video of someone robbing a convenience store (in oakland! another city entirely!) enough times on loop, you can convince enough voters that Something Must…

Statistics are not reality. Crime stats fell because the DA was so tolerant of crime, people stopped bothering to report anything but the most serious ones.

This seems like a huge flaw, the idea that cities and law enforcement agencies are reporting their own crime statistics. There's an obvious conflict of interest, it seems like this should be done by a 3rd party. I know it's not that simple, but at least getting some neutral indication of the level of crime in a city would go a long ways.

Crime is visibly exploding, the police are only recording the most heinous/obvious incidents, and then we're told that crime is down.

Post reply on HN