Dropping out is probably not for you • Hacker News Board

Re: Dropping out is probably not for you

#81

Post by hugh3 » Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 4:33 PM UTC

randomdata wrote: post #69

vsl2 wrote: post #49

Why do most of the commenters seem to dislike college? Those were the best four years of my life, taught me real skills, programming and otherwise, that I use every day, and granted me that all-important degree which has come in handy for me and probably will for the vast majority of people who don't build the next Facebook or Apple. Unless you're in situation #5 that the article talks about, spend a few years to get…

I reached a hypothesis in yesterday's discussion about college being a substitute upbringing for those who may not have had many opportunities growing up: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3150390 The dislike comes form it being pointless busywork. It may not have been pointless busywork to you, depending on your upbringing. And that is just fine. Everyone comes with different experiences. College is just not for e…

The dislike comes form it being pointless busywork. It may not have been pointless busywork to you, depending on your upbringing.

Or from what university you're at, and what you're studying.

My advice to programmer types who come into university thinking they already know all about programming: forget CS and take as much mathematics as you can. That stuff is hard and you can't learn it anywhere else.

Re: Dropping out is probably not for you

#82

Post by hugh3 » Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 4:36 PM UTC

padobson wrote: post #11

"Don't do it. Why? Because if that's your character you need every bit of structure that your school or university is providing you. Before you can even think of starting your own business you will have to learn self-discipline." OR you can drop out and get a lousy, physical job - get the same structure you get from school, gain better appreciation for mental skills and abilities that university teaches you, and add…

Yeah, going to university in the hopes of learning discipline is like going to [some place not commonly associated with X] to learn [X]. [1]

If it's discipline you need, you'd be better off spending four years in the military. Perhaps you'll say that this is "discipline provided by others" rather than "self-discipline", but in practice I'm not sure there's much of a difference based on the ex-military folks I've met.

[1] Sorry, the metaphor subsystem of my brain is broken today. Insert your own metaphor here.

Re: Dropping out is probably not for you

#83

Post by adbge » Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 4:37 PM UTC

Gobitron wrote: post #71

adbge wrote: post #66

I dropped out of school last semester, so I think I can add some (unique) perspective. Maybe I will flesh these thoughts out into a blog post later. When considering dropping out of college, you're the one who is ultimately responsible for that decision, you're the one who will live with the consequences, and you're the one who has the best information for making that decision. It's all on you. You have to ask yourse…

Interesting story. Do you have any regrets about your decision? Were you making money before you dropped out and are you making enough to support yourself now?

I don't have any substantial regrets, but it's possible that those will come with time. I sincerely wish that I could have made college work for me, but I think that I'd have to be a substantially different person for that to happen. One thing that I do regret is that I'm missing out on the opportunity to engage in academic research. I would like to try it, just to see what it's like, and I'm afraid that I might not have the opportunity without attending university.

As far as money goes, I made some cash from participating in Google's Summer of Code, but currently I'm not making any significant income and I'm living at home. I've got some projects that I'm working on and I've had a couple of interviews so, hopefully, I will soon be able to support myself, but not currently.

Re: Dropping out is probably not for you

#84

Post by lsc » Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 4:40 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #10

Thank you. Excellent article that needs to be read by everyone who's considering dropping out for "a startup". Let's ignore the complexities and focus on crude market value. A smart person with no college degree can probably earn $25,000 per year at 18. We're assuming a middle to upper-middle class background-- no special family connections-- and a reasonable work ethic. With a CS, math, or science degree from a good…

the 18-22 years are periods of extreme income growth for anyone ending up in a skilled field. I didn't go to school and eh, my income had a similar curve during those years. Going from unskilled to skilled is going to make your income curve look pretty goddamn dramatic for a few years, no matter how you go from unskilled to skilled.

The thing is, a degree no longer guarantees a skilled job. I know a lot of smart and well-educated people working retail right now.

Also: do not underestimate middle-class connections. As a kid I mowed lawns to make money. Middle class neighborhood in the central valley. One of the yards I dealt with belonged to the sister of an industry notable; it got me an interview. (it wasn't my first SysAdmin/Programming gig, but it certainly was the most impressive one. For years after, if I really desperately wanted a job I'd use that guy as a reference, and I'd get the gig.) During the depths of the dot-com crash? I cracked under the stress of being the only sysadmin to not get laid off, and quit without another job lined up. My dad, a mid-level IT manager at a university got me an interview with someone who had worked for him as a student who had later done well with his own company.

Those two jobs, I think, made the difference between a pretty good career and a sputtering, so-so career. And really, if I didn't have a dad and a stepdad in the field and if I didn't have computers, compilers, books and people who knew how to use such things around the house from the age of four onward, well, I'd probably have ended up with a semi-skilled career. Whatever you want to call this situation I was born into has helped my career far more than any amount of schooling could.

That said, I think you are likely right about the cultural aspects of College; No matter how rich I become, I suspect I will never fully relate as 'middle class' even though I mostly am. My social skills have suffered quite a lot; I'm probably four years behind my peers who went to school in that area. The thing is, high school is such a horrible experience it leaves you overly misanthropic and cynical. I think College softens this outlook for most people- it took some time for me to soften.

But income-wise? I don't think a degree would have bought me anything. I mean, it might be different now, just because the job market is so shit, and going to school for four years is lightyears better than being unemployed or working retail for four years; but I just wanted to say that school is not what gets you that 30+% salary increase for four years; going from being an unskilled worker to a skilled worker is what does it.

It's also possible that people born without at least middle-class connections can gain those connections by going to college; that could dramatically contribute to the value you take from a degree.

Re: Dropping out is probably not for you

#85

Post by adbge » Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 4:51 PM UTC

9085 wrote: post #75

adbge wrote: post #66

I dropped out of school last semester, so I think I can add some (unique) perspective. Maybe I will flesh these thoughts out into a blog post later. When considering dropping out of college, you're the one who is ultimately responsible for that decision, you're the one who will live with the consequences, and you're the one who has the best information for making that decision. It's all on you. You have to ask yourse…

I also dropped out and I have quite a different experience. My experience with CS in school was that it was boring. The teachers did not teach it well and I was better off learning on my own. I think this is highly dependent on your own personal learning style. College is not for everyone. If you're smart, you have support. I don't know what people were around you but generally the right people can tell if you'll mak…

We're mostly in agreement.

My point is that dropping out isn't a particularly easy path to choose. It's not a good default for most people.

I'm not trying to say that you can't be successful as a drop out. If I believed that, I wouldn't have dropped out myself.

Re: Dropping out is probably not for you

#86

Post by randomdata » Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 4:52 PM UTC

hugh3 wrote: post #81

randomdata wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I reached a hypothesis in yesterday's discussion about college being a substitute upbringing for those who may not have had many opportunities growing up: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3150390 The dislike comes form it being pointless busywork. It may not have been pointless busywork to you, depending on your upbringing. And that is just fine. Everyone comes with different experiences. College is just not for e…

The dislike comes form it being pointless busywork. It may not have been pointless busywork to you, depending on your upbringing. Or from what university you're at, and what you're studying. My advice to programmer types who come into university thinking they already know all about programming: forget CS and take as much mathematics as you can. That stuff is hard and you can't learn it anywhere else.

Or from what university you're at, and what you're studying.

I should clarify that it is pointless busywork with respect to a career. There's definitely something to be said about learning for the sake of learning and personal growth. Not having world class knowledge of mathematics is not going to hinder your wallet in any way though.

Re: Dropping out is probably not for you

#87

Post by TheloniusPhunk » Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 4:57 PM UTC

zerostar07 wrote: post #8

tintin wrote: post #5

Lately a lot of people think they can earn a lot of money without working hard. I'm not sure why people think this way. Maybe TV told them you can get whatever you want whenever you want.

Not TV, The Social Network (seriously, how many of you had friends asking you about their "billion dollar" startup idea after seeing the movie?)

So many. I have a programmer friend who saw that movie and became obsessed with going and working for some hip tech company (like Twitter). I can't say this from experience, but I imagine working for twitter (or any other sexy tech company) isn't a big party. It's hard work. It's seventy hour weeks and a ball-breaking boss.

Re: Dropping out is probably not for you

#88

Post by jtbigwoo » Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 4:57 PM UTC

randomdata wrote: post #62

zerostar07 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not TV, The Social Network (seriously, how many of you had friends asking you about their "billion dollar" startup idea after seeing the movie?)

Having just watched it two days ago, the Social Network shows Zuckerberg working all hours of the day, every day. If that doesn't give people the idea that it requires hard work, I don't know what will.

The words were all about hard work, but the context was not. I bet the Zuckerberg character was drunk and/or at a party in a majority of the scenes he appeared in. Especially if we exclude the scenes where drinking would have resulted in punishment (e.g. during depositions.)

Re: Dropping out is probably not for you

#89

Post by padobson » Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 4:59 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #10

Thank you. Excellent article that needs to be read by everyone who's considering dropping out for "a startup". Let's ignore the complexities and focus on crude market value. A smart person with no college degree can probably earn $25,000 per year at 18. We're assuming a middle to upper-middle class background-- no special family connections-- and a reasonable work ethic. With a CS, math, or science degree from a good…

I graduated with honors from a top 10% university and it cost a heck of a lot more than $25k AND I've now been working for 3.5 years and I haven't hit the $80k mark yet. Only a small subset of the skills that I'm marketing right now did I learn in college.

Furthermore, I'm doing better than a lot of my peers. Your numbers are suspect at best.

$25k x 4 = $100,000 opportunity cost for college.

$20k x 4 = $100,000 college debt load (if you're lucky).

8% over 10 years for interest payments = ~$45k.

$245,000 total cost to go to school.

If you figure a $55,000 starting salary after school and do $8,000 yearly increases because you're clever and smart, it will take you 4 complete years to make up the difference AND that's still assuming the same clever and smart person has been working without a degree for 8 years and is still only making $25k/year. (For the curious, the two cross path around $350k total salary earned)

ALSO, that same clever and smart person could have been accruing a whole host of assets with the money they were making every year and could be well north of net worth $250k by the time the college grad gets to net worth $0. That clever and smart person with 8 years experience in the real world could use those assets to do all sorts of things our college grad is still going to have to wait some years to do.

The financial benefit for a smart person going to school and not going to school, in my mind, is irrelevant. When you factor in opportunity cost and debt, that same smart person will have grayed the difference between a college grad and a non-college grad by the time the college grad gets to net worth $0.

And as college tuition inflation continues to outpace all other expenditures in society, I would move more firmly into the drop-out camp.

Re: Dropping out is probably not for you

#90

Post by JesseAldridge » Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 5:00 PM UTC

I don't think it really matters much either way. I dropped out and spent a few years doing a couple startup type things that didn't end up going anywhere. I ran out of money and got a job. The stuff I had put together + my various online profiles (Stack Overflow, Hacker News, etc.) seemed to be enough to get employers interested. No regrets here. I think Jacques' advice may be somewhat outdated. There are better ways to get educated and prove your competence these days.