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Qaddafi Is Dead, Libyan Officials Say

nytimes.com

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Re: Qaddafi Is Dead, Libyan Officials Say

#81

Post by Thieum22 »

burgerbrain wrote: post #56
roboneal wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazing the shift of perspective... How many who voted for Obama (or at least against John McCain) would expect their vote would elect a President who would violate the sovereignty of Pakistan with a special forces operation, murder an American citizen without due process, and enter into armed conflict with Libya without the consultation of Congress and eventually assassinate a sitting head of state?

I don't think it's known at this point that Qaddafi was assassinated by the US. The two more common things I'm hearing is that he was either shot by rebels or hit by a NATO air-strike, which is kind of ambiguous.

First was a French / NATO air strike, then rebels finished the job.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-20/french-air-power-be...

Re: Qaddafi Is Dead, Libyan Officials Say

#82

Post by nobody314159 »

jellicle wrote: post #68
kabuks wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on your definition of civilized. Having been born and raised in the middle east (Egypt), I can assure you that by many definitions of 'civilized' we fare really well compared to the US. True, there isn't separation of religion and state, and that leads to much 'uncivilized' behavior, and a wacky sense of law. On the other hands, we don't have nearly the same rates of murder, rape, theft that we have here in t…

Yeah, I had some questions about civilization in Egypt. Is Egypt assassinating thousands of people worldwide with anti-tank missiles fired from unmanned aircraft, on a daily basis? Because if not, then yes I'd say you compare quite well to the U.S.

That's a bit unfair.

You have to give them a chance, they only just got democracy - it takes a while to build up a military-industrial complex.

Re: Qaddafi Is Dead, Libyan Officials Say

#83

Post by tkahn6 »

potatolicious wrote: post #80
tkahn6 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect if you were a Copt you'd have a much different perspective.

I suspect if you were black in America you'd have a much different perspective. Or Mexican. There are marginalized, abused groups everywhere. The West fares no better, though it does make it look cleaner (e.g., rampant discrimination is codified by law instead of remaining unwritten).

I seriously doubt blacks and Hispanics in America have to worry about being blown up as they leave their places of worship. Violence and malice towards Copts in Egypt is on an entirely different plane than racism experienced by minorities in the West. These moral equivalences grow tired.

Re: Qaddafi Is Dead, Libyan Officials Say

#84

Post by brown9-2 »

mhb wrote: post #4
Aloisius wrote: post #3

To quote Andrew Sullivan: To rid the world of Osama bin Laden, Anwar al-Awlaki and Moammar Qaddafi within six months: if Obama were a Republican, he'd be on Mount Rushmore by now.

“It’s a great day,” Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, said on CNN on Thursday morning. “I think the administration deserves great credit. Obviously, I had different ideas on the tactical side, but the world is a better place.” http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/21/world/africa/qaddafis-deat...

Somewhat ironic for McCain to say so: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/03/john-mccains-tw...

Re: Qaddafi Is Dead, Libyan Officials Say

#85

Post by brown9-2 »

civilian wrote: post #9

I guess it's okay that he's dead, but I'm concerned about the way he was killed. A bunch of soldiers ran into his house, stripped him, dragged him through the streets, and shot him at some point. That is some Trojan War shit. I'm still not convinced that the Middle East is civilized... which is why I'm an isolationist. I'm not very reassured by this quote from the transitional government spokesperson: “We were seriou…

What you described is pretty much how a standard armed revolution goes, not sure what it has to do with the "civility" of the region as a whole.

Re: Qaddafi Is Dead, Libyan Officials Say

#86

Post by potatolicious »

tkahn6 wrote: post #83
potatolicious wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect if you were black in America you'd have a much different perspective. Or Mexican. There are marginalized, abused groups everywhere. The West fares no better, though it does make it look cleaner (e.g., rampant discrimination is codified by law instead of remaining unwritten).

I seriously doubt blacks and Hispanics in America have to worry about being blown up as they leave their places of worship. Violence and malice towards Copts in Egypt is on an entirely different plane than racism experienced by minorities in the West. These moral equivalences grow tired.

I'll concede the point re: on a different plane.

That said, I still believe the claim that the Middle East is "uncivilized" (with the implication that the West is), is awfully arrogant - as if the NATO powers haven't all done far worse, just not as visibly, and far from home.

Reading some of the posts in this thread you'd swear that the mark of a civilized people is how well they can hide their acts of brutal violence, as opposed to simply how much brutal violence they commit.

Re: Qaddafi Is Dead, Libyan Officials Say

#87

Post by seabee »

huhtenberg wrote: post #70
redthrowaway wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of pseudo-intellectual relativism is depressing. The man massacred his own people. He was insane. Don't take CNN's word for it; listen to the damned audiotapes yourself. Critically analyzing media portrayals is good. Dismissing any conclusions reached as, "well nobody can really say" is facile and lazy. It's what people who don't have anything to add to the conversation say in an attempt to sound smart.

> It's what people who don't have anything to add to the conversation say in an attempt to sound smart. This applies to literally every comment on this page. It is not "well nobody can really say" dismissal. It is a matter of media feeding made-up facts since current conflict started. You must've missed the photos of insurgents storming strongholds in their flip-flops, the same guy posing dead in more than one positi…

> It is a matter of media feeding made-up facts since current conflict started

Therefore the past 30 years mean nothing?

His crimes did not begin and end with the NATO operation. He was notorious for decades, in particular when certain Western governments were all too happy to offer him hospitality and (military) trade deals knowing full well what he sanctioned against his own people. But who cares about such trivialities when they're our friends, right?

Re: Qaddafi Is Dead, Libyan Officials Say

#89

Post by cpeterso »

astine wrote: post #53
Aloisius wrote: post #3

To quote Andrew Sullivan: To rid the world of Osama bin Laden, Anwar al-Awlaki and Moammar Qaddafi within six months: if Obama were a Republican, he'd be on Mount Rushmore by now.

The GOP might be singing his praises, but the Democratic Caucus would be screaming bloody murder about the lack of trials. It's all politics.

> The GOP might be singing his praises.

Not likely.

Re: Qaddafi Is Dead, Libyan Officials Say

#90

Post by mhb »

brown9-2 wrote: post #84
mhb wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“It’s a great day,” Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, said on CNN on Thursday morning. “I think the administration deserves great credit. Obviously, I had different ideas on the tactical side, but the world is a better place.” http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/21/world/africa/qaddafis-deat...

Somewhat ironic for McCain to say so: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/03/john-mccains-tw...

Why?
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