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Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

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Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#81

Yes! I'm a fan & practitioner of NVC, mindfulness, careful work life balance, etc for being able to treat startups as a marathon vs sprint... But I've observed people overuse & abuse these tools to rationalize prioritizing self over peers in ways that come at the direct expense of the same exact things of their colleagues. It can add up over time in a way that breeds resentment, distrust, non-collaboration, etc. Gene…

"good vibes only"

"higher vibrations only"

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#82
This is a forefront issue that Buddhism tries to address, both modern pragmatic Buddhism and fundamentalist Buddhism. It's why right speech, right action, and morals is one of the first things they drill into you. Most pragmatic practitioners will refuse to teach you if you indicate that you have some mental problems or moral deficiencies that should be addressed by a professional first, as mindfulness may end up doing more harm than good. It's one of the flaws of teaching secular mindfulness, far from its Buddhist roots. I've experienced all these interpersonal deficits after meditating seriously 2 hours every day for 2 years straight. Just need to have the self-awareness to address them, despite the goal of no-self.

I saw a Dr. K video in another comment, and one of my favorite quotes he uses to describe meditation is that, "if you run for 5 miles a day, there will be changes to your body that will definitely happen".

More here:

- https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-i-the-fund...

- https://eudoxos.github.io/cfitness/html/index.html

- https://themindfulgeek.com/ plus a talk he gave at Google https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2xxsA9Bn-4

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#83

Having lived in Boulder CO for several years, which is basically the Mecca of Americanized mindfulness, I can attest that this is true. The most ardent practitioners that I met were invariably self obsessed.

I spent a week in Denver and boulder and continuously got the eerie vibe that every person I met who moved there, is an example of the most self centered person I would have met in any other situation elsewhere. I suppose the type of young person who’d move to CO “for the outdoors” is gonna select for the trend. Everything, including the assholish cycling, was indicative of that. Noped out of that place for this reas…

Denver is Trungpa territory, right?

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#84
post #72
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going to be honest, this sounds like horsesh!t. In my entire life, meeting people from all walks of life (including people I vehemently disagree with, and some I would almost consider enemies, and even some zen Buddhists), when it came to the crunch, I know they/we would all have run towards an emergency as humans/neighbours. On the other hand, let me assume it's true, then it isn't representative IME.

Have you lived in a large city with a very apparent homelessness crisis, such as san francisco? The homeless in places like SF are routinely experiencing serious emergencies, invariably need money and shelter, and are passed by tens of thousands of people each day who have the abilities to help them. Of those tens of thousands of people who pass a homeless person who's clearly in need of help, perhaps 100 will give t…

First question: Yes.

The rest: conflation.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#85

Bound to happen. Why do you think Buddha has to leave all his wealth and kingdom before even starting the journey of mindfulness, leaving everything behind? The western adaptation is reducing meditation and mindfulness to a "tool" of relieving stress and better ones mental well-being. As easy as downloading an app and stay calm for few minutes. Unfortunately, this is not ideal. The traditional way is to seek a guru w…

I don't know that it's necessarily fair to describe this as a purely Western phenomenon. The Lamas were a hereditary elite who ruled over Tibet in a brutal caste system which reduced most of the people in it to the status of serfs, and all with their own particular strain of Buddhism used to justify and excuse it all. On our fridge, my wife has a picture of the Dalai Lama wearing a big fancy watch on his wrist. I alw…

[deleted]

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#86
Went through this myself after your typical LSD->mindfulness path in college. Definitely learned a ton, but people don’t take meditation seriously enough!

It’s not just a little stress reduction technique, it can completely shift your view of reality. Much of your “average successful life” is based on the illusion of the self, and meditation slowly chips away at that illusion. I think without the spiritual “context” (e.g. what was taught by Goenka) for the insight, one can become very withdrawn from life

That said, I still meditate and think it’s been overwhelmingly positive. But like anything worthwhile, denying the real risks doesn’t help anyone

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#87

True Story. I was newly moved to San Francisco and enrolled in a meditation course on literally loving-kindness (they were all mindfulness, this was a focused seminar). When I was on my way in someone was having a mental health emergency right outside the front door and looked to clearly need care. Not knowing who to call for this since I didn't live in the city, and definitely not wanting to call cops, I went in and…

and how do you act after no longer being newly moved to San Francisco?

that incident was imprinted in you, but how has it worked out for you since?

my guess: you failed to learn anything because of course that focused seminar doesn't teach anything related to the kind of mental health emergencies that occur on San Francisco streets, and so thats a decent crutch for you to lean on to not engage with them yourself, overriden by your own self preservation instincts. or are you now a mental health case worker that responds to these instead of the police? or do you know how to call those groups now so that you aren't the confused bystander like when you first moved?

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#88
post #64

Whenever someone talks about mindfulness or stoicism, the name that pops to my head is Tim Ferris. Like a less crappier Joe Rogan with an actual brain maybe? I still listen to some of his podcast episodes because he gets guests who I want to learn about. But oh my god the narcissism! I get it the podcast is about success and how to succeed, but for the love of god try to take your head out of your own ass for a minut…

Selfishness is not narcissism. Narcissism usually comes with selfishness, but you can't induce the other way round. It's interesting that you mention that Ferriss or his guests wouldn't talk about their acts of kindness, as that's exactly the kind of thing narcissists like to talk about (= virtue signalling).

Agreed that at the least they’re implicitly honest about it (which is why I still listen).

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#89
post #64

Whenever someone talks about mindfulness or stoicism, the name that pops to my head is Tim Ferris. Like a less crappier Joe Rogan with an actual brain maybe? I still listen to some of his podcast episodes because he gets guests who I want to learn about. But oh my god the narcissism! I get it the podcast is about success and how to succeed, but for the love of god try to take your head out of your own ass for a minut…

Selfishness is not narcissism. Narcissism usually comes with selfishness, but you can't induce the other way round. It's interesting that you mention that Ferriss or his guests wouldn't talk about their acts of kindness, as that's exactly the kind of thing narcissists like to talk about (= virtue signalling).

> It's interesting that you mention that Ferriss or his guests wouldn't talk about their acts of kindness, as that's exactly the kind of thing narcissists like to talk about

Hadn't heard of him, but as an [ex]scientist I'd be fascinated to see the actual data showing any correlation between "narcissist" and "entrepreneur, investor, author, podcaster, and lifestyle guru"[0]

Put slightly different, how many people who shy away from attention end up famous for their podcasts?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Ferriss

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#90
post #62

Can anyone actually say what “mindfulness” really means? I once met a mindfulness coach who was trying to sell me on his business where he comes onsite and coaches corporate clients on mindfulness. The pitch broke down when he couldn’t articulate to me what the hell was really meant by mindfulness.

It's a bunch of different practices. At it's heart it just means paying attention all the time. The outcome depends on the motivation; it could be real insight, or power over others, or greater calmness.

There's no point in trying to teach mindfulness to people who just want a 5-minute de-stressing session. Mindfulness is work.

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