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Go Ahead, Sell My Data

kevinjcurtin.com

81–90 of 114 posts

Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#81
post #40
post #34

I guess the problem isn't targeted advertising per se. It's that you don't know what your personal information will be used for in the future. Maybe it will give you better, more targeted advertising. Maybe it will be used to deny you an insurance policy or be sold to a recruiting firm that will reject your job application. I guess Facebooks terms don't allow that, but those terms can change at any time. Maybe not ne…

I do understand concerns over what happens to your data moving forward (changing laws, organizational/management changes etc.). But again, I can't think of any of the information on a social networking site being all that damning. The information that I share on say Facebook or Google+ (at least for me) never really consists of ultra-private information. And I think your example is a bit extreme.

> I think your example is a bit extreme.

The problem is, extreme eventually happens.

Nazi Germany has been such a commonplace rhetorical device on the Internet for so long [1] that we end up easily dismissing it when it's indeed a useful comparisson. This, for many reasons, would be one such case (we can debate that through email if you want), but let's dismiss it anyway.

The important fact here is that bucket loads of (your) personal data are being processed, correlated with each other and stored into centralized server clusters — which have become very tangible assets.

If someone ill-intentioned — a government, an interest group, a company — gets a hold of these assets — through power, through craft, through acquisition — they can use it to target you for whatever their purpose.

In a warfare scenario, that could mean targeted, granular misinformation; targeted terrorism through AI-generated blackmailing, tailored on an infividual level; mass identity hijacking. It could make war a personal matter like it has never been before.

(And on the other side, there's the Nazi Germany scenario where, unbeknownst to you, you are being blacklisted for a genocide to come — after all, the first step is classification. [2])

The fact that we're living rather peaceful times doesn't mean that a potential weapon like these databases should go unregulated; and the fact that we see no storm in the horizon doesn't mean we shouldn't care about the possibility.

As long as you can imagine what sorts of bad things could be done with that personal data, the argument is: you should care because you don't know for a fact what tomorrow will look like.

[1] If Wikipedia is to be believed, it's been 20 years now since Godwin's Law was first formulated!

[2] http://www.genocidewatch.org/aboutgenocide/8stagesofgenocide...

Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#82
What if your "private" data were sold on the open market?

What if your boss checked which sites you visited before hiring you? What if you wanted to keep something from your wife or your children? What if the person you just met at a bar wanted to find out all the pages you visited? What if a stalker wanted to know where you shopped and what you bought?

All of the above can easily be done with just the tracking information the Like button has.

Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#83
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not obvious to me. How were you harmed by facebook logging this data?

If I sign up to a video store and suddenly some guys are watching inside my windows all the time to check whichever videos I might enjoy more, no, that would not be ok with me. It's harmful because it's abusive. Next year they will want more revenue, so how deeper will they go for that, will they break my windows open and storm the house? I know it's an exageration, but it ilustrates my point.

I see this as something that could potentially lead to abuse, but I don't see how it is abusive by itself, and I don't agree with trying to limit technology because it could potentially be abused unless there's a clear case that the danger of such abuse outweighs the potential benefits. Like the writer of the original article, I haven't seen anyone make that case - it's mostly just people saying "but privacy!"

In your example, those people breaking into your home is wrong. Watching you when you are in public or on their property would not be.

Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#84
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not obvious to me. How were you harmed by facebook logging this data?

An extreme example, your online history can be presented in court as an evidence against you.

That's not an argument against keeping that history. It could just as well be presented in court as evidence for me, or be presented as evidence against people I don't like. I'm in favor of the legal system having better evidence that they can use to reach more correct verdicts.

Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#85
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I met your friend yesterday and he was showing me some pictures from a camping trip he took last week. I asked "who's that guy standing to your left" and he told me it was you. Now I know what you look like, forever, and you can't ask me to forget or delete that either. I don't see the problem here.

You don't see it because you aren't looking for it, and are probably not interested in it. You're just unilaterally opposing a viewpoint. I'll make it easy - you're not an oracle on the identities of 500 million people, no matter how many camping photos you look at. When you are, we'll be uncomfortable about you as well.

Why would you be uncomfortable in that case? How do the potential drawbacks of such an oracle existing outweigh the potential positives?

Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#86
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not obvious to me. How were you harmed by facebook logging this data?

I'm not actually asserting that the logging itself harms me, just that it pisses me off. The reason it pisses me off is that my browser history reveals things about me that I'd rather keep private. Facebook is taking that from me without my consent. I would feel approximately the same if I discovered they were stealing stuff out of my garage without my consent-- it wasn't part of the deal I thought I agreed to. Witho…

Not really, no. Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding facebook's tracking system, but I don't think your browser history is being captured here. You are viewing pages that have a facebook widget on them, and if you have a facebook cookie that says "pingswept", this tells facebook that pingswept visited a page with a specific widget on it (and thus, which page). Facebook is not taking anything from you that you are not sending them - the issue is that a website that is not facebook is passing your information on to facebook. Aren't they the ones that deceived you, not facebook?

Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious what "losing control" means here. Do you mean they don't feel they have the willpower to resist these hyper-personalized ads? Or do they feel the ads will become so obnoxious and attention-getting (because of the personal nature) that it will interfere with their daily thought patterns?

"they don't feel they have the willpower to resist these hyper-personalized ads" Although it's not necessarily a discussion of their own willpower but rather whether the masses will lose portions of the power to think for themselves. Not always the same or hyperspecific portions, but we're slowly giving away more and more of our decisions to advertisements. / Disclaimer: not sure whether I paraphrased this correctly.…

I don't believe ads are the only culprit. Daily, and increasingly, we give away our decision making to a myriad of sources. Blogs. Fox News. @aplusk (Ashton Kutcher). Apple product keynotes.

Hopefully we can also use the same technology to liberate ourselves from the magnetic attraction of ads and the media and do something positive. I'd look to recent events (Arab Spring, #OWS) as a possible glimmer of hope there.

Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#88

>While it is true that "we pay with our data" for many of the free (as in no monetary cost) social networks we use, what is the alternative? People don't want to pay money for these types of services and this is a business model that allows companies to operate and thrive while providing a valuable service to their users. That strikes me as a pretty weakly supported argument. Facebook is in a position where they coul…

That would be extortion unless they allow you to completely delete an account and opt-out (or better yet, require opt-in) of data collection. Because if not, then the only way to hide your data from the public would be to pay FB.

Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#89
I think what irks me most about this is the laziness in relying on user data as a means to sell advertising to fund their "services".

The writer poses the question "what's the alternative?" to this business model. My answer, "Stop being lazy about it and come up with a new model. I have."

It might work it, it might not, but we all have to keep trying if we don't want what there is now - and the implications.

We are uniquely positioned to come up with another avenue of generating revenue so it doesn't have to be this way.

I'm sure if you work at Facebook or Google you see no harm in gathering and cross-polinating the data, I can see the sheer power of what you can do must be quasi-orgasmical, and it must almost have a life of it's own. Just how much can you gather, from how many different methods? It's like a college project with no limits but it won't last forever, someone somewhere with something different, will come and take that crown, and maybe, just maybe, it won't be as clandestine as it is now.

Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#90
post #76

All the arguments that defend Facebook e.a come down to: "making money trumps human rights". There's no arguing about this subject with people who believe that people should not have the right to control their own data, just as there is really no arguing with people who don't believe in the value of free speech or the right to vote. This is not meant as an insult. Believe what you believe. But if you want to argue th…

> There's no arguing about this subject with people who believe that people should not have the right to control their own data,

There's no inalienable human right to data about you unless you want to argue that it's somehow your property. (Or that it relates to life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness). More likely data about you is just information on a public stage.

If I see you walking around town and write it down, is that illegal? Am I steeling something from you? Is that illegal search or seizure? I'm creepy, yes, but I'm not infringing anyone's rights.

So we're all just creeped out by Facebook. As yet no one is being harmed.

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