When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided" • Hacker News Board

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#81

Post by ghusbands » Fri, May 06, 2022, 1:48 PM UTC

sirbranedamuj wrote: post #67

ddalex wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> except to note that it was not an apology at all. Ctrl-F there doesn't show a single "sorry" in the text. Or "Casey" for that matter. Why is it so difficult to say: "Casey, we are sorry, you were right and we were mistaken.". Instead there is a nebulous ~extended a branch to community and hope to accept our apology~ (paraphrasing) without offering an apology in the first place.

try looking for the word "apology" edit: > We know we have so much more to learn, but we hope that you will accept our apology and understand we’re humans behind this product with a capability and willingness to learn from our past mistakes. If someone said that to me, I would say "oh ok, no problem dude" and move on with my life. Not even defending the microsoft guy, I have zero skin in the game and couldn't care le…

Except "but we hope you will accept our apology" is not an apology. If they'd written "but we hope you will accept our apologies", it would have been an overly formal apology. In the informal tone they are otherwise using, saying "sorry" would have been most appropriate.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#82

Post by Longhanks » Fri, May 06, 2022, 1:49 PM UTC

warent wrote: post #75

DHowett wrote: post #30

Another day, another Casey post dunking on my team. Hi! This tweet misses the mark only a little bit; in a previous blog post, we apologized[1] pretty frankly to everyone involved in this discussion. I'll admit that we didn't list him by name, but neither did we list the other handful of folks involved. We should have. In turn, Casey rightly did not acknowledge it except to tell his followers that it was not a real a…

> I just don't know what else he's asking for here. Credit? Us to die screaming? ... We get it, Microsoft sucks, we should all be fired, rah rah rah. Someone is upset and venting. This comment comes across to me as "Ugh we already said the right words. Their distress is so inconvenient to me, why isn't it stopping?" EDIT: Typically in this community we denote when a comment has been edited to change a critical piece…

It's already been edited twice. The original message ended with the snarky "we should all be fired, rah rah" thing. They're already on damage control.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#83

Post by GartzenDeHaes » Fri, May 06, 2022, 1:49 PM UTC

pavlov wrote: post #24

blagie wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) 1980-2000 Microsoft was evil. I find 2022 Microsoft to be ahead of Google and Facebook on the ethics front, so YMMV. Microsoft doesn't do much antitrust anymore, is /more/ respectful of privacy than most of the tech industry, and by some measures, is the world's largest contributor to the open source collective. Tools like Visual Studio Code are pretty good too, and run on GNU/Linux. 2) Even with evil companies, c…

It’s not that Microsoft became less evil, but the Overton window of what’s acceptable for tech companies has been constantly translating towards evil. In 1977 Bill Gates wrote a public letter saying that software piracy is wrong and developers should get paid; this was highly controversial at the time and launched the hackers-vs-MSFT dichotomy. A lot of people sincerely believed it’s evil to use copyright law to prev…

| software piracy is wrong and developers should get paid

... while at the same time stealing everything they could find. One of the most obvious examples was Bill Crowther's ADVENTURE, which Microsoft sold for multiple platforms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Adventure

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#84

Post by TrueTom » Fri, May 06, 2022, 1:49 PM UTC

doix wrote: post #62

TrueTom wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm being facetious here. As far as apologies go that's a pretty weak attempt.

Heh, my bad! This is the problem with text based conversation between strangers :).

It was dumb and passive-aggressive comment (by me) so every kind of response is fair game, I guess... :)

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#85

Post by mannykannot » Fri, May 06, 2022, 1:49 PM UTC

doix wrote: post #62

TrueTom wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm being facetious here. As far as apologies go that's a pretty weak attempt.

Heh, my bad! This is the problem with text based conversation between strangers :).

I doubt this would have gone any better face-to-face. In a text-based conversation you at least have the opportunity to reflect before you reply.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#86

Post by mellosouls » Fri, May 06, 2022, 1:50 PM UTC

ddalex wrote: post #45

DHowett wrote: post #30

Another day, another Casey post dunking on my team. Hi! This tweet misses the mark only a little bit; in a previous blog post, we apologized[1] pretty frankly to everyone involved in this discussion. I'll admit that we didn't list him by name, but neither did we list the other handful of folks involved. We should have. In turn, Casey rightly did not acknowledge it except to tell his followers that it was not a real a…

> except to note that it was not an apology at all. Ctrl-F there doesn't show a single "sorry" in the text. Or "Casey" for that matter. Why is it so difficult to say: "Casey, we are sorry, you were right and we were mistaken.". Instead there is a nebulous ~extended a branch to community and hope to accept our apology~ (paraphrasing) without offering an apology in the first place.

we hope that you will accept our apology and understand we’re humans behind this product with a capability and willingness to learn from our past mistakes.

Seems pretty sincere and decent to me.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#87

Post by drumhead » Fri, May 06, 2022, 1:50 PM UTC

DHowett wrote: post #30

Another day, another Casey post dunking on my team. Hi! This tweet misses the mark only a little bit; in a previous blog post, we apologized[1] pretty frankly to everyone involved in this discussion. I'll admit that we didn't list him by name, but neither did we list the other handful of folks involved. We should have. In turn, Casey rightly did not acknowledge it except to tell his followers that it was not a real a…

You're not doing your company any credit here......

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#88

Post by curiousgal » Fri, May 06, 2022, 1:50 PM UTC

DHowett wrote: post #30

Another day, another Casey post dunking on my team. Hi! This tweet misses the mark only a little bit; in a previous blog post, we apologized[1] pretty frankly to everyone involved in this discussion. I'll admit that we didn't list him by name, but neither did we list the other handful of folks involved. We should have. In turn, Casey rightly did not acknowledge it except to tell his followers that it was not a real a…

It's so ironic that people are criticizing this comment and the linked apology for their language but fail to see that the original issue was caused by Casey's language and not the actual technical details.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#89

Post by RL_Quine » Fri, May 06, 2022, 1:51 PM UTC

DHowett wrote: post #30

Another day, another Casey post dunking on my team. Hi! This tweet misses the mark only a little bit; in a previous blog post, we apologized[1] pretty frankly to everyone involved in this discussion. I'll admit that we didn't list him by name, but neither did we list the other handful of folks involved. We should have. In turn, Casey rightly did not acknowledge it except to tell his followers that it was not a real a…

Your tone is way, way off.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#90

Post by 10000truths » Fri, May 06, 2022, 1:51 PM UTC

lelandfe wrote: post #50

10000truths wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I also probably would not have responded favorably to that wording – irrespective of if they were correct. Why not? I see nothing wrong with this sort of feedback. It's blunt, but constructive.

If it was your code they were talking about, you may feel differently. Blunt, hyperbolic statements like "massively overcomplicated" can feel like a shot across the bow when someone is talking about code you wrote. Kindness and gentleness go a long way in OSS.

> If it was your code they were talking about, you may feel differently.

I'd much prefer to-the-point feedback like that, even if it's somewhat vague. But maybe that's just my ability to swallow my pride/ego.

> Blunt, hyperbolic statements like "massively overcomplicated" can feel like a shot across the bow when someone is talking about code you wrote. Kindness and gentleness go a long way in OSS.

Casey's statements don't seem hyperbolic to me at all - they accurately reflect the performance and simplicity that the Windows Terminal developers were leaving on the table. We know this because Casey literally created refterm to prove his claims.

If anything, the developer's response in the initial GitHub issue, that optimizing the performance of a terminal requires "an entire doctoral research project in performant terminal emulation", is more hyperbolic than anything Casey has said.