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Clairnote: An alternative music notation system

clairnote.org

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Re: Clairnote: An alternative music notation system

#81

Post by Jeff_Brown »

exabrial wrote: post #70
nameless912 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority of _Western_ music doesn't need it, but microtonal music is extremely important in a number of Asian, Middle Eastern, African, and even Eastern European systems.

Ok... so? Use a different notation, duh. See my point about letting edge cases drive the bus off a cliff.

Continuing to use the status quo notation would hardly constitute driving the bus off a cliff. And the cases of microtonality are not that edge. Beyond allowing interoprability among musicians from different cultures, western notation has been critical to most (and there's a lot of it) western microtonal music.

Re: Clairnote: An alternative music notation system

#82

Post by exabrial »

Jeff_Brown wrote: post #81
exabrial wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok... so? Use a different notation, duh. See my point about letting edge cases drive the bus off a cliff.

Continuing to use the status quo notation would hardly constitute driving the bus off a cliff. And the cases of microtonality are not that edge. Beyond allowing interoprability among musicians from different cultures, western notation has been critical to most (and there's a lot of it) western microtonal music.

Who the hell cares? Use a different notation for the .00000000001% of the time you ever have to interop with a non 12-tone equal temperament scale.

Re: Clairnote: An alternative music notation system

#83

Post by zozbot234 »

blagie wrote: post #45
InitialLastName wrote: post #7

At a glance, this is a neat concept, but doesn't seem to come at the problem from the perspective of the most common users of music notation (experienced musicians); rather, it appears to have been written by somebody who was frustrated by trying to learn to read music. For experienced musicians, the priorities are a) legibility for sight-reading and transcription (which this system, with indistinguishable sitting/ha…

The vast majority of users of music notation are amateurs, and being more friendly to amateurs would mean even more users. The vast majority of decision-makers are experienced users with a vested interest in the status quo. The issue is very similar to why corporate systems have such horrible user interfaces. The people making the decisions in IT aren't the normal users of the system. IT cares about features, integra…

I might agree with the general claim, but diatonic notation is a lot friendlier to amateurs. Traditionally, kids in early education learn solfège (Do, Re, Mi...) which is very much based on diatonicism.

Re: Clairnote: An alternative music notation system

#84

Post by sfblah »

midenginedcoupe wrote: post #23

I'm not entirely sure who's the target audience of this new notation. I've been reading music for 40 years and don't think I've once needed the vertical gaps between notes to tell me whether an interval was a major or a minor third. In fact, I think in terms of steps in the scale, not whether those steps are flattened or not. So equi-distant vertical spacing for the notes in a major scale better fits my mental model.…

I basically agree. On a piano, this notation has the significant negative of making it unclear which notes are played on "white" keys and which are played on "black" keys, in the key of C. It's pretty useful to have that explicitly marked.

Re: Clairnote: An alternative music notation system

#85

Post by jnovek »

chrismorgan wrote: post #32
InitialLastName wrote: post #7

At a glance, this is a neat concept, but doesn't seem to come at the problem from the perspective of the most common users of music notation (experienced musicians); rather, it appears to have been written by somebody who was frustrated by trying to learn to read music. For experienced musicians, the priorities are a) legibility for sight-reading and transcription (which this system, with indistinguishable sitting/ha…

I’ve gained that impression from every single alternative notation system that’s come up here (a new one comes up every year or two). They have a habit of solving problems that just aren’t problems for experienced readers, while causing problems for experienced readers. (They may also solve some real problems, but when they do, they always involve compromises. Inconsistent octave positioning on the staff is a problem…

How does one learn to actually read music, then?

I have been learning to play the keyboard for about a year and I find the layout of the keys to make a lot of sense for figuring out things like scales and chords. When I was in high school I never really learned to sight-read a staff, it was always a struggle for me and probably what turned me off to playing an instrument for so long.

If simplified notations are essentially a crutch for newbies, how does one “git gud”?

Re: Clairnote: An alternative music notation system

#86

Post by blagie »

dehrmann wrote: post #60
tgv wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem, IMO, is that once you have acquired a notation system is that you can’t/won’t make the jump the another one. So if you train beginners with eg. clairnote, they will have a hard time making the jump to a higher difficulty level. It’s not unlike a walled garden.

It's a bit like the Dvorak keyboard problem. It's slightly better, but too much of a hassle to bother with. You need something between 2x and 10x better to displace an entrenched incumbent.

I think a better music notation system would easily be at least 2x better for beginners. A rationalized system could mean 100% of kids learn to read and write music, and anyone could understand how to play an instrument like a piano from music (even if not able to do it at full speed).

My point was that it could be 10x better, and it wouldn't lead to a switch. The decision-makers aren't the same as the people whom it would benefit.

Coincidentally, there are a lot of scientific fields where jargon could be dramatically simplified, to where anyone could learn them too. Same entrenched walled garden problem. That's especially true of fields like medicine, chemistry, and biology where things were named before we understood them.

Re: Clairnote: An alternative music notation system

#87

Post by LegionMammal978 »

aidenn0 wrote: post #57
InitialLastName wrote: post #7

At a glance, this is a neat concept, but doesn't seem to come at the problem from the perspective of the most common users of music notation (experienced musicians); rather, it appears to have been written by somebody who was frustrated by trying to learn to read music. For experienced musicians, the priorities are a) legibility for sight-reading and transcription (which this system, with indistinguishable sitting/ha…

Right, some highly chromatic music would be better represented in this notation, but it seems a poor fit for traditional western music. Also, a single, brief, look at a piano keyboard will expose why whole-steps and half-steps always being equidistant on the sheet music might not be a desirable goal. There are similar affordances on woodwinds as well. Maybe a string-instrument player could comment on usefulness for s…

> Maybe a string-instrument player could comment on usefulness for string music?

Speaking from my experience playing violin (as an ameteur), players generally practice their scales until the finger positions become muscle memory. This way, the key provides the entire note position -> finger position mapping, and accidentals simply become half-step modifications. Since the scales would need to be learned anyway to play tonal music, I don't see how this notation would simplify anything.

Re: Clairnote: An alternative music notation system

#88

Post by reikonomusha »

jnovek wrote: post #85
chrismorgan wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve gained that impression from every single alternative notation system that’s come up here (a new one comes up every year or two). They have a habit of solving problems that just aren’t problems for experienced readers, while causing problems for experienced readers. (They may also solve some real problems, but when they do, they always involve compromises. Inconsistent octave positioning on the staff is a problem…

How does one learn to actually read music, then? I have been learning to play the keyboard for about a year and I find the layout of the keys to make a lot of sense for figuring out things like scales and chords. When I was in high school I never really learned to sight-read a staff, it was always a struggle for me and probably what turned me off to playing an instrument for so long. If simplified notations are essen…

Learning to sight-read is different than just reading. Sight-reading takes an enormous amount of daily dedication and practice for years to get to even an intermediate level.

Re: Clairnote: An alternative music notation system

#89

Post by alar44 »

jnovek wrote: post #85
chrismorgan wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve gained that impression from every single alternative notation system that’s come up here (a new one comes up every year or two). They have a habit of solving problems that just aren’t problems for experienced readers, while causing problems for experienced readers. (They may also solve some real problems, but when they do, they always involve compromises. Inconsistent octave positioning on the staff is a problem…

How does one learn to actually read music, then? I have been learning to play the keyboard for about a year and I find the layout of the keys to make a lot of sense for figuring out things like scales and chords. When I was in high school I never really learned to sight-read a staff, it was always a struggle for me and probably what turned me off to playing an instrument for so long. If simplified notations are essen…

Literally practice. Don't look at your hands. It takes years and years, there is no quick way to learn piano.

Re: Clairnote: An alternative music notation system

#90

Post by john61 »

jnovek wrote: post #85
chrismorgan wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve gained that impression from every single alternative notation system that’s come up here (a new one comes up every year or two). They have a habit of solving problems that just aren’t problems for experienced readers, while causing problems for experienced readers. (They may also solve some real problems, but when they do, they always involve compromises. Inconsistent octave positioning on the staff is a problem…

How does one learn to actually read music, then? I have been learning to play the keyboard for about a year and I find the layout of the keys to make a lot of sense for figuring out things like scales and chords. When I was in high school I never really learned to sight-read a staff, it was always a struggle for me and probably what turned me off to playing an instrument for so long. If simplified notations are essen…

> How does one learn to actually read music, then?

The same way millions of musicions before you. By reading music, training, time and patience.

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