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Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

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Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#81

Post by scythe »

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #29
DannyBee wrote: post #18

It's not unprecedented. It's been a steady state that they have pretended was not a steady state. They are not "in a drought". They say drought in a way that implies that it is a temporary state that may return to a different, normal state. But it will not. They have reached a new normal of a lower water level. https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-05-06/editorial-t... was a great editorial on this from last yea…

CA water use is 50% environment, 40% agriculture, 10% residential. Maybe we should focus on reducing that 50%? It was nice and all when we had plenty of water to waste but it’s time to revisit those policies. https://www.ppic.org/publication/water-use-in-california/

The reason that we have those numbers is because we have carefully accounted for practically all of the recoverable freshwater in California. The unintended long-term consequences of damming nearly all of the streams and rivers in the state should not be underestimated. Similar proposals have been raised before and shot down:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Water_and_Power...

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#82

Post by imtringued »

tejohnso wrote: post #57
DannyBee wrote: post #18

It's not unprecedented. It's been a steady state that they have pretended was not a steady state. They are not "in a drought". They say drought in a way that implies that it is a temporary state that may return to a different, normal state. But it will not. They have reached a new normal of a lower water level. https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-05-06/editorial-t... was a great editorial on this from last yea…

> It is politically untenable to fix this I believe this statement is applicable to the climate crisis in general. Recent reviews of 2015 Paris agreement progress indicate abysmal performance. We've been using resources in such a way that we don't have to consider their true costs, and we've been doing so for generations. I don't think we'll see very significant change until it is forced upon us. We'll then make reac…

"IPCC scientists say it's 'now or never' to limit warming"

Never it is.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#83

Post by blululu »

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #29
DannyBee wrote: post #18

It's not unprecedented. It's been a steady state that they have pretended was not a steady state. They are not "in a drought". They say drought in a way that implies that it is a temporary state that may return to a different, normal state. But it will not. They have reached a new normal of a lower water level. https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-05-06/editorial-t... was a great editorial on this from last yea…

CA water use is 50% environment, 40% agriculture, 10% residential. Maybe we should focus on reducing that 50%? It was nice and all when we had plenty of water to waste but it’s time to revisit those policies. https://www.ppic.org/publication/water-use-in-california/

This is less of a solution than people in Kern county would like to hope for. That environmental water use is almost entirely in Humboldt and the surrounding counties (Trinity, Del Norte, Mendocino). Those people will be just as unhappy about killing off the Trout and Salmon fisheries that have been there for 10000 years as people in Kern will be about ending the Cotton Harvest that has been going for the last 100 years. And this is to say nothing of the difficulties associated with capturing all of that water. It is a purely selfish policy that wants LA to pay for Fresno to get water from Trinity instead of Central Valley farms simply living within their means and cutting back on water usage (which will have to be done eventually).

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#85

Post by loeg »

izzydata wrote: post #53

It amazes me that this isn't considered a full blown emergency. This feels as bad as a nuke slowly descending onto a city of millions. Yet everyone continues to consume water like nothing is happening. The time for extreme water rationing and banning of certain industries in the desert is years ago. If I lived anywhere near there I would have been desperately trying to sell my property before it became worthless.

A market based solution (not rationing) would work well, you just need to do it. I would not be worried about drinking water access if I lived in CA, but I would worry about dumb politicians imposing additional draconian restrictions on residential water use while continuing to do nothing to agricultural use.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#86

Post by ncallaway »

api wrote: post #35
DannyBee wrote: post #18

It's not unprecedented. It's been a steady state that they have pretended was not a steady state. They are not "in a drought". They say drought in a way that implies that it is a temporary state that may return to a different, normal state. But it will not. They have reached a new normal of a lower water level. https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-05-06/editorial-t... was a great editorial on this from last yea…

Isn't there a third option that involves building serious infrastructure to pipe water down from the Northwest? Of course you can't build things in America anymore so that's probably off the table.

Leave our water alone.

More seriously, though, water use is contentious between states and a big thing that the federal government mediates.

WA and OR probably wouldn’t be willing to pump significant amounts of water to CA outside of extreme circumstances or uneconomical prices.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#87

Post by dboreham »

AndrewUnmuted wrote: post #78
onphonenow wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. You can look at this from an economics standpoint as well. We have run out of FREE water. If all water use in CA cost anywhere close to residential water rates ($8 / 100 cubic feet) there would be no shortage. Even a small tax of $0.01 per gallon would be a start in this space. We have exploded population and if you look at water projects (that actually deal with supply) have not done the same over 50 years or w…

> in a desert Why do so many people choose to live in a desert? It makes very little economic sense. Feels like it will be destined for failure no matter what silicon valley tries to pay its grunts. Any expectation of having enough water for such a low price is laughably absurd. The population of this state is literally asking for these conditions - they are choosing to live there.

People like nice weather.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#88

Post by amluto »

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #66
zeroonetwothree wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CA water use is 50% environment, 40% agriculture, 10% residential. Maybe we should focus on reducing that 50%? It was nice and all when we had plenty of water to waste but it’s time to revisit those policies. https://www.ppic.org/publication/water-use-in-california/

Even within the already small residential slice, regulations are weird. When my parents lived in the LA area, they had a large swimming pool and an irrigated lawn but were required to have ultra low flush toilets. The amount of water saved by those toilets (which often required multiple flushes to empty the bowl of waste) paled in comparison with the government approved swimming pool and sprinkler systems.

A modern low flush toilet is excellent. They flush considerably better than the old 5 gpf toilets. I’ve seen plumbers advise replacing old 5 gpf toilets with 1.28 gpf toilets to reduce the frequency of clogs.

For amusement, you can look up MAPS testing. People flush varying amounts of standardized pretend poop to make sure that toilets work well.

(But yes, there was a generation of low flush toilets that were essentially 5 gpf toilets modified to use less water per flush. They worked poorly.)

Also, a covered pool uses surprisingly little water.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#89

Post by colechristensen »

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #29
DannyBee wrote: post #18

It's not unprecedented. It's been a steady state that they have pretended was not a steady state. They are not "in a drought". They say drought in a way that implies that it is a temporary state that may return to a different, normal state. But it will not. They have reached a new normal of a lower water level. https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-05-06/editorial-t... was a great editorial on this from last yea…

CA water use is 50% environment, 40% agriculture, 10% residential. Maybe we should focus on reducing that 50%? It was nice and all when we had plenty of water to waste but it’s time to revisit those policies. https://www.ppic.org/publication/water-use-in-california/

It is really odd to include a metric for “environmental” water “use” and would seem to be a strategy to confuse. As if a river is “using” water and reducing that would be a good thing.

California is past its capacity for people and agriculture and both need to be reduced or supplemented with generated fresh water. There are plenty of other places with adequate resources.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#90

Post by tablespoon »

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #66
zeroonetwothree wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CA water use is 50% environment, 40% agriculture, 10% residential. Maybe we should focus on reducing that 50%? It was nice and all when we had plenty of water to waste but it’s time to revisit those policies. https://www.ppic.org/publication/water-use-in-california/

Even within the already small residential slice, regulations are weird. When my parents lived in the LA area, they had a large swimming pool and an irrigated lawn but were required to have ultra low flush toilets. The amount of water saved by those toilets (which often required multiple flushes to empty the bowl of waste) paled in comparison with the government approved swimming pool and sprinkler systems.

> Even within the already small residential slice, regulations are weird. When my parents lived in the LA area, they had a large swimming pool and an irrigated lawn but were required to have ultra low flush toilets. The amount of water saved by those toilets (which often required multiple flushes to empty the bowl of waste) paled in comparison with the government approved swimming pool and sprinkler systems.

How so? Pretty much everyone there has a flush toilet that they use all the time, while I'd imagine pools are much rarer (and also not drained/filled with each use). Toilets also essential items that last decades, so it takes a long time to phase in any updates to their standards (especially compared to lawn-watering regulations). It wouldn't surprise me that going to low flush toilets would save more water (across the whole population, over the long run) than banning pools would.

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