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Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

theatlantic.com

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Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#81

Post by ncmncm »

jacobolus wrote: post #80
ncmncm wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you have the ability to stop making demands from your comfortable chair, in your comfortable house, in your secure neighborhood, of someone who has given all that up for your benefit.

I am on a safe comfortable bed in a safe comfortable flat in a safe comfortable city. My friends in Ukraine are not so fortunate; they are profoundly unsafe and uncomfortable and they and many of their friends and family are now dead, refugees, or Russian prisoners, and their neighbors’ houses were turned to rubble. Neither are the Russian journalists recently murdered or thrown in prison for nothing. Neither are the…

Not speaking says all that is needed.

And, I know you would do no different, in his shoes. But you are not, and never will be.

Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#82

Post by boomboomsubban »

ncmncm wrote: post #60
paulpauper wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For example, Daniel Ellsberg, leaking Pentagon Papers - basically everyone now agrees that was legitimate whistleblowing as it proved leading government figures were lying through their teeth to the American public about the reality on the ground in Vietnam. In contrast, Aldrich Ames and Robert Hanssen were CIA and FBI employees who sold all kinds of secrets to the Soviet Union for several decades - pretty sure we ca…

He wasn't let off. They knew they could not convict him. Now they have things sewed up better. Pliant judges, extortion, secret charges, secret "evidence", secret "testimony".

They had all those things for Ellsberg, he was barred from presenting a defense and the judge admitted the administration attempted to bribe him.

His charges were dropped because the prosecution's gross misconduct and illegal evidence collection had become national news. Without Watergate, Ellsberg would have spent years in prison.

Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#83

Post by farias0 »

bostonsre wrote: post #76
farias0 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? He used to work for the American government for god's sake

I'm biased but I think Russia's invasion and the way they are slaughtering civilians is a lot worse than the missteps that caused Snowden to disclose American secrets. Russia is also spiraling into an incredibly authoritarian police state that is much worse than what he was trying to prevent in America.

I'm not talking about the NSA spying on American citizens. I'm talking about America slaughtering civilians in half of the middle east.

Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#84

Post by V_Terranova_Jr »

pmoriarty wrote: post #38
V_Terranova_Jr wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who would do the charging? The executive branch for whom it was most convenient for him to ? The legislative branch, many of who see taking on the "intelligence community" as something for which they would get branded as non-patriotic? You need a critical mass to pursue any form of actual accountability - lone brave senators or congresspersons won't have enough momentum to get past the activation energy barrier. Prio…

"The legislative branch, many of who see taking on the "intelligence community" as something for which they would get branded as non-patriotic?" I've never gotten the impression that Americans have very much love for the intelligence community. The military, yes, the intelligence community, no. Congress has slapped the intelligence committee before (in the aftermath of the Church Committee[1]). It's just that post-9/…

The lack of any accountability for the actions taken by the IC both prior to and in the wake of September 11, or any real accountability stemming from the Snowden revelations, should be taken as proof that the statement/sentiment "they are keeping us safe" sufficiently moderates public outcry. Again, not to mention Snowden-level stuff is typically signed-off at the White House level, so not just overzealous IC people operating autonomously.

If you get caught in one of these scandals, you just have to wait out the news cycles in the shadows where you typically are anyway. Or you "take one for the team" like Clapper did - no doubt with a lot of legal advice from civil servant lawyers. It doesn't really matter whether or not the public tells intelligence officers/operatives "Thank you for your service!" You can also see the retroactive immunity congress granted these organizations and impassioned defenses they offered.

There is no stomach (or understanding) to demand better of the IC in any way reminiscent of the Church or Pike committee times.

I can't really fathom the magnitude of wrongdoing that would now be needed to change how these organizations think and work, or have key staff actually slapped with enduring punishments.

Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#85

Post by paulpauper »

dragonwriter wrote: post #58
paulpauper wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

he went off the grid because he had to choose between his safety or his public image/career. he wisely chose the former. last tweet feb 27th https://mobile.twitter.com/Snowden/status/149804957713120870...

> he went off the grid because he had to choose between his safety or his public image/career. It is kind of weird that you suggest that (not, on its own, an implausible guess) and link to the tweet where he rather angrily denies exactly that characterization as support.

you know, he could dispel that rumor by ...tweeting again .

Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#86

Post by sudosysgen »

jacobolus wrote: post #80
ncmncm wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you have the ability to stop making demands from your comfortable chair, in your comfortable house, in your secure neighborhood, of someone who has given all that up for your benefit.

I am on a safe comfortable bed in a safe comfortable flat in a safe comfortable city. My friends in Ukraine are not so fortunate; they are profoundly unsafe and uncomfortable and they and many of their friends and family are now dead, refugees, or Russian prisoners, and their neighbors’ houses were turned to rubble. Neither are the Russian journalists recently murdered or thrown in prison for nothing. Neither are the…

Do you think that all NGO presidents living in the US should resign because of the abuses of their government? No? Then why are you calling out Snowden for hypocrisy?

Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#87

Post by sudosysgen »

pmoriarty wrote: post #38
V_Terranova_Jr wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who would do the charging? The executive branch for whom it was most convenient for him to ? The legislative branch, many of who see taking on the "intelligence community" as something for which they would get branded as non-patriotic? You need a critical mass to pursue any form of actual accountability - lone brave senators or congresspersons won't have enough momentum to get past the activation energy barrier. Prio…

"The legislative branch, many of who see taking on the "intelligence community" as something for which they would get branded as non-patriotic?" I've never gotten the impression that Americans have very much love for the intelligence community. The military, yes, the intelligence community, no. Congress has slapped the intelligence committee before (in the aftermath of the Church Committee[1]). It's just that post-9/…

I don't call promoting people who did these things a slap. The Church Committee was basically useless.

Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#88

Post by VictorPath »

wnevets wrote: post #40

If Snowden's and Greenwald's twitter accounts during the lead up (and since) to Russia's invasion of Ukraine hasn't answered that question for you, what proof could possibly exist that would convince you that they're puppets for Putin?

> puppets for Putin

For non-Americans who don't know, accusing someone who wants something you don't of being a puppet for the Kremlin has been a popular activity for the past century?

Support the fourth amendment to the US constitution? Puppet for the Kremlin.

Don't want to get into a nuclear arms race? Puppet for the Kremlin.

Support the civil rights movement? Puppet for the Kremlin.

Don't want to pick up France's colonial subjugations in Indochina? Puppet for the Kremlin.

And so on. The social security act of 1935 was called a Russian plot. Those who wanted to wind down involvement in WWI a few months into US involvement were called Bolshevik supporters.

Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#89

Post by wnevets »

VictorPath wrote: post #88
wnevets wrote: post #40

If Snowden's and Greenwald's twitter accounts during the lead up (and since) to Russia's invasion of Ukraine hasn't answered that question for you, what proof could possibly exist that would convince you that they're puppets for Putin?

> puppets for Putin For non-Americans who don't know, accusing someone who wants something you don't of being a puppet for the Kremlin has been a popular activity for the past century? Support the fourth amendment to the US constitution? Puppet for the Kremlin. Don't want to get into a nuclear arms race? Puppet for the Kremlin. Support the civil rights movement? Puppet for the Kremlin. Don't want to pick up France's…

How would you categorize these tweets? [1] [2]

[1] https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/1494006204896620548

[2] https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1508831524854059008

Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#90

Post by neal_jones »

ncmncm wrote: post #68
ratsmack wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect there are many more that we'll never hear about. The three letter agencies have the expertise and manpower to make anyone's death appear accidental or from natural causes.

There was the recent Rolling Stone reporter whose car was jimmied to stick the throttle at maximum, killing him in an "accident". No investigation. Nobody will be prosecuted for that.

Not that I’m expecting this kind of situation in my life, but I wonder if there would be any workaround in this situation? Could you shift out of gear? Turn the car off? Deploy a large cartoon parachute?

Of course if an agency like this wanted me dead I’m sure evading one attempt would only prolong my life shortly.

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