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UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

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Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#81

Post by sofixa »

argsnd wrote: post #69
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a very easy way for the UK to solve the Gibraltar issue. The same line of reasoning would also allow it to drastically improve its relationship with Argentina.

Yeah just hand over any territory anyone ever makes a weak claim to just to avoid conflict despite the wishes of the people who live there. Has your "Z" bumper sticker arrived in the mail yet?

How is the Spanish claim on Gibraltar weak? They border it, it was taken from them at gunpoint, and it's extremely dependent on Spain for services and labour.

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#82

Post by blibble »

sofixa wrote: post #77
Veen wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is precisely why the UK is no longer in the EU. It no longer has to follow "majority law" and can do what is in its own best interests.

> and can do what is in its own best interests. If it did that, it wouldn't have gotten out of the common market. The UK is way past sensible choices in its best interests, and is firmly in the "cut its nose to spite the EU".

how you leave the legal framework without exiting the "common market" (single market)?

the answer is: you can't

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#83

Post by nbevans »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #50
nbevans wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The last couple years has really let the mask slip on what the EU stands for and they've made it expressly clear how they intend to treat the UK going forward - despite the UK's best efforts to forge a genuinely strong relationship, this has been rebuffed at every opportunity. We are "fair game" to them now. So it makes complete sense to design future energy projects with sovereignty in mind.

> the UK's best efforts to forge a genuinely strong relationship Last time I checked the UK was still the sole country in the world refusing an official ambassador status to the representative of the EU and the sole country to have threaten to unilaterally withdraw from an international treaty with the EU in clear breach of international law. I think your definition of genuine and mine differ substantially.

Check again - the ambassador status was granted last year.

The genuine best efforts spanned from 2017-ish (negotiations didn't start in 2016 after the vote) to 2019. It took a while for the UK to realise the EU no longer wanted to be friendly and cordial, and that's when the UK's own stance finally changed.

A bilateral treaty between the UK and EU is not "international law". A bilateral treaty contains exit clauses that can be invoked if necessary. The Geneva Convention is an example of an international law. Though I don't know specifically what you are referring to in your example.

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#84

Post by sofixa »

Veen wrote: post #79
sofixa wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The EU wants the UK to be subservient to the Commission for ideological, political and economic reasons. The UK doesn't want to be back in that situation. What a load of Brexiteer crap. The UK was never subservient, they were among the top decision makers and powers in the EU. Brexit UK wants to have its cake and eat it too and is simply impossible. You can't be independent from the EU on trade and power simply bec…

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Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#85

Post by samwillis »

Havoc wrote: post #74

Why not pump the energy into the EU grid at bottom and pull it out in the north?

I assume control, with the investment coming from the UK they want to have control of it. If it has to go via the EU they would loose that control and could potentially lose access.

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#86

Post by lazide »

tremon wrote: post #34
Y-bar wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not knowledgeable in high voltage transmission, but in which ways does the shallower water depth affect the transmission line?

It doesn't; it affects the cost of laying it. The cable must be anchored to the sea floor at regular intervals and it's cheaper to place an anchor at a few hundred meters depth (the coastal shelves) than at 3 km (depth of the Biscay abyssal plain).

It wouldn’t surprise me either if it helps in some legal situations - if someone runs over your cable in Spanish territorial waters vs international waters for instance, it’s probably easier to get paid back.

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#87

Post by blibble »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #50
nbevans wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The last couple years has really let the mask slip on what the EU stands for and they've made it expressly clear how they intend to treat the UK going forward - despite the UK's best efforts to forge a genuinely strong relationship, this has been rebuffed at every opportunity. We are "fair game" to them now. So it makes complete sense to design future energy projects with sovereignty in mind.

> the UK's best efforts to forge a genuinely strong relationship Last time I checked the UK was still the sole country in the world refusing an official ambassador status to the representative of the EU and the sole country to have threaten to unilaterally withdraw from an international treaty with the EU in clear breach of international law. I think your definition of genuine and mine differ substantially.

> Last time I checked the UK was still the sole country in the world refusing an official ambassador status to the representative of the EU

you're not exactly up to date as this was sorted almost a year ago

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57002735

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#88

Post by tinco »

sofixa wrote: post #63
mike_hearn wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brexit isn't mentioned anywhere and the physics of it would be the same regardless of the EU existing or not. The reason to go direct to Morocco are that transmission through regular AC grids would lose virtually all the power before it gets anywhere near the UK. 10GW is a hell of a load and you can't just pretend a grid is a bathtub at these scales. But as you brought it up, even if there was a semi-conductor breakt…

> The EU wants the UK to be subservient to the Commission for ideological, political and economic reasons. The UK doesn't want to be back in that situation. What a load of Brexiteer crap. The UK was never subservient, they were among the top decision makers and powers in the EU. Brexit UK wants to have its cake and eat it too and is simply impossible. You can't be independent from the EU on trade and power simply bec…

Stop being so adverserial. Parent hasn't stated any pro-brexit sentiment so just assume they're arguing in good faith.

The whole idea of the EU is that all nations in it are subservient to the commission. We like it that way because that makes the collaboration more rational and it makes the rising tide lift all the boats. Wether you agree with it or not, the idea of the Brexit is that the UK can be strong without the EU, possibly even stronger. Wether that will happen remains to be seen.

But how can you say they can't be independent of the EU in power while commenting on an article that's literally about them establishing power bypassing the EU?

I'd love for the UK to come back to us in the EU. But their "intentional obtuse"-ness is exactly what they should be doing to make good on their promises to the citizens of the UK.

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#89

Post by lazide »

pxeger1 wrote: post #73
mabbo wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High Voltage Direct Current (HVDC) is much more efficient at transmission over long distances than AC. It can throw off your intuition on these things. In China, there is a 3300 km line like this moving 12GW of power. This is a little bit longer, but not by much. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current

The reason AC is often believed to be more efficient is because higher voltages of either type are more efficient (less loss to electrical resistance), and it's much easier to step voltage up and down using AC.

Transformers are very efficient and easy to make for sure, and can ‘easily’ step up to millions of volts.

Longer distance runs of AC can have a lot of losses though due to inductance, especially when they’re close to large conductive masses (like seawater or earth).

DC requires expensive conversion equipment to get back to AC for the grid.

AC is cheap for short runs. Usually AC vs DC high voltage starts to be equally cost effective around the several hundred miles of buried lines, and a clear winner around the 1000 mile range (efficiency and capex wise).

HVDC can also allow grid balancing when disparate grids are connected (different frequencies and voltages for instance).

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#90

Post by blibble »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #61
nerdawson wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would make it dependent on the countries it hopped through and subject to their political whims. The Gibraltar issue crops up every now and then for instance so having control over an electrical connection gives the Spanish government more leverage. Same with France and the dispute over fishing waters. Only recently France were threatening to cut off power to Jersey.

There is a very easy way for the UK to solve the Gibraltar issue. The same line of reasoning would also allow it to drastically improve its relationship with Argentina.

the fact that the people don't want to be Spanish or Argentinian is just a small inconvenience to be ignored, right?

(referendums in both were >99% remain in the UK)

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