Le Corbusier's project Plan Voisin – a radical urban design for Paris from 1925 • Hacker News Board

Re: Le Corbusier's project Plan Voisin – a radical urban design for Paris from 1925

#81

Post by PolygonSheep » Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 12:55 AM UTC

febeling wrote: post #45

cm2187 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the cutoff is the invention of photography. The only way painters could remain relevant is by doing something original rather than beautiful. Then the other arts followed. Modern classical music is impossible to listen to most ears. And architects followed too, more interested in creating an original shape of glass or concrete rather than building anything beautiful and pleasing. There is hardly any piece of…

One problem was that people started believing that there's no such thing as beauty. How do you build a beautiful building, if you think beauty is an illusion anyway? I have the idea that it's related to atheism. Once you believe all of life and all of nature is ultimately some brute atoms buzzing back and forth anyway, then what your imagination creates is likely to look pretty brutalist. If you believe it's angels a…

> I have the idea that it's related to atheism. Once you believe all of life and all of nature is ultimately some brute atoms buzzing back and forth anyway, then what your imagination creates is likely to look pretty brutalist. If you believe it's angels and God's creation all the way down you will place meaning and symbols into the large elements and every tiny bit. Anyone else can see this connection?

I don't see why it wouldn't apply equally to religion. If you believe our life on earth is just a brief prelude to an eternity in something much better, why bother building anything beautiful? There'll be plenty of time for that in heaven. Indeed the best buildings and cities you could possibly build on earth pale in comparison to the shabbiest in heaven.

Additionally you wouldn't want beauty on earth to distract from the glory of God. The best way to build is pragmatic, as cheap, durable, and functional as possible with no wasted frivolity. Something like square buildings made of reinforced concrete placed close together so people don't have to spend a lot of time traveling.

So I think it's a wash. It seems like it could go either way honestly.

Re: Le Corbusier's project Plan Voisin – a radical urban design for Paris from 1925

#82

Post by alexvoda » Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 10:47 AM UTC

PolygonSheep wrote: post #81

febeling wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One problem was that people started believing that there's no such thing as beauty. How do you build a beautiful building, if you think beauty is an illusion anyway? I have the idea that it's related to atheism. Once you believe all of life and all of nature is ultimately some brute atoms buzzing back and forth anyway, then what your imagination creates is likely to look pretty brutalist. If you believe it's angels a…

> I have the idea that it's related to atheism. Once you believe all of life and all of nature is ultimately some brute atoms buzzing back and forth anyway, then what your imagination creates is likely to look pretty brutalist. If you believe it's angels and God's creation all the way down you will place meaning and symbols into the large elements and every tiny bit. Anyone else can see this connection? I don't see w…

Wonderfully constructed argument.

It may very well be that this is a case of correlation rather than causation. I do agree however that at first sight they do appear to corelate

Re: Le Corbusier's project Plan Voisin – a radical urban design for Paris from 1925

#83

Post by alexvoda » Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 10:52 AM UTC

febeling wrote: post #45

cm2187 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the cutoff is the invention of photography. The only way painters could remain relevant is by doing something original rather than beautiful. Then the other arts followed. Modern classical music is impossible to listen to most ears. And architects followed too, more interested in creating an original shape of glass or concrete rather than building anything beautiful and pleasing. There is hardly any piece of…

One problem was that people started believing that there's no such thing as beauty. How do you build a beautiful building, if you think beauty is an illusion anyway? I have the idea that it's related to atheism. Once you believe all of life and all of nature is ultimately some brute atoms buzzing back and forth anyway, then what your imagination creates is likely to look pretty brutalist. If you believe it's angels a…

I believe that we are still in a very long transition period.

The journey from apreciation of devine beauty towards apreciation of natural beauty passes through the stage of nihilism.

Re: Le Corbusier's project Plan Voisin – a radical urban design for Paris from 1925

#84

Post by merry_flame » Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 11:02 AM UTC

zukzuk wrote: post #71

pembrook wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While everybody loves Haussman's Paris today, at the time, it was extremely controversial and he was eventually ousted. Paris used to be like the cramped medieval old towns you see throughout the rest of Europe. Here's a classic quote from one of Haussman's most powerful critics: "We weep with our eyes full of tears for the old Paris, the Paris of Voltaire, of Desmoulins, the Paris of 1830 and 1848, when we see the g…

The parts of Paris that were most affected by Haussmann's renovation are arguably still kind of awful. The Champs-Élysées for example is a horrible place to actually spend time in, and is currently undergoing major redevelopment to make it a bit more livable.

Not his fault. The Champs-Élysées were almost pedestrian back then.

Re: Le Corbusier's project Plan Voisin – a radical urban design for Paris from 1925

#85

Post by agumonkey » Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 9:00 PM UTC

fennecfoxen wrote: post #3

The big problem with Le Corb is not that his stuff is ugly. It’s that his designs are inhuman. No one with any choice wants to live or work in that kind of development. It’s striking! Bold! Architects love the look! But form should follow function and Le Corb’s idea of function is “a machine for living” and there’s not too much room in that vision for things extraneous to living like “dreaming” or “enjoying life,” so…

There are hidden function. The good ratio of height / width produces a familiar feel. Some tiny "non useful" spaces are actually useful for people to project their lives onto, sit there, stand, talk.

Re: Le Corbusier's project Plan Voisin – a radical urban design for Paris from 1925

#86

Post by Gibbon1 » Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 9:46 PM UTC

PolygonSheep wrote: post #81

febeling wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One problem was that people started believing that there's no such thing as beauty. How do you build a beautiful building, if you think beauty is an illusion anyway? I have the idea that it's related to atheism. Once you believe all of life and all of nature is ultimately some brute atoms buzzing back and forth anyway, then what your imagination creates is likely to look pretty brutalist. If you believe it's angels a…

> I have the idea that it's related to atheism. Once you believe all of life and all of nature is ultimately some brute atoms buzzing back and forth anyway, then what your imagination creates is likely to look pretty brutalist. If you believe it's angels and God's creation all the way down you will place meaning and symbols into the large elements and every tiny bit. Anyone else can see this connection? I don't see w…

> I don't see why it wouldn't apply equally to religion.

Observation of mine. Old religious buildings and art were inspired. You have to admit that even if you believe the religion itself was bunkum. But look at newer religious buildings and art.

Re: Le Corbusier's project Plan Voisin – a radical urban design for Paris from 1925

#87

Post by PolygonSheep » Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 11:31 PM UTC

Gibbon1 wrote: post #86

PolygonSheep wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have the idea that it's related to atheism. Once you believe all of life and all of nature is ultimately some brute atoms buzzing back and forth anyway, then what your imagination creates is likely to look pretty brutalist. If you believe it's angels and God's creation all the way down you will place meaning and symbols into the large elements and every tiny bit. Anyone else can see this connection? I don't see w…

> I don't see why it wouldn't apply equally to religion. Observation of mine. Old religious buildings and art were inspired. You have to admit that even if you believe the religion itself was bunkum. But look at newer religious buildings and art.

I think old religious buildings and art were better, but we only now have the great ones that have survived. There must have been a lot of cheaply built, unimpressive churches built throughout the centuries that were demolished and forgotten at some point. There must have been a lot of religious art that was the medieval/renaissance/etc equivalent of a kitschy Thomas Kincade painting that no one will remember after it's gone.

It's kind of like old books or old music. We remember the greats but for every Mozart there must have been at least a dozen 18th century composers whose work wasn't as good, never got traction, was never recorded on vinyl/cd and now might as well never have existed. There's like a curation effect over time.