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Vancouver proposes 10k-dollar annual fee for gas stations without EV charging

driving.ca

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Re: Vancouver proposes 10k-dollar annual fee for gas stations without EV charging

#81

Post by brewdad »

gist wrote: post #56

Legally will never happen. Will be challenged and while maybe they reserve the right to approve new locations with this (minor) stipulation not going to take existing businesses and wack them with a $10k fee like this. And forgetting the purpose or the reason simply not what you do.

It seems like there are ways to make this legally viable. Perhaps raise the business license fees for gas stations by $10k a year and then offer a rebate for stations that install EV charging. I feel like that would pass legal muster, if they could make it work politically.

Re: Vancouver proposes 10k-dollar annual fee for gas stations without EV charging

#82

Post by chipsa »

giantg2 wrote: post #75
crate_barre wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Naive question, but aren’t we talking about installing an electrical outlet essentially? Some of these options look like they plug into a wall: https://www.amazon.com/MUSTART-Portable-Charger-Electric-Cha... Bare minimum the apartment building can work to install wall outlets in the garage, or very long extension cords. Video: https://www.amazon.com/vdp/006d5bc8225646d086bb5afa191e52d8?... That’s not asking for a lot…

The outlet isn't a big deal. The infrastructure to support it is. You need to pay the supplier for additional supply lines, an electrician for the panel and other customer side infrastructure. That's the expensive part.

Most people don’t need a supply upgrade, because they can shift most of the charging to night time, and the majority of people don’t use as much power at night as during the day. Unless they have a very small service. But most people have it sized to support a stove, electric dryer and A/C, if they got service relatively recently. And most electric companies will do the service upgrade for cheap if necessary, because they’ll make it back from more electric use.

They do need an electrician to run the new wires to the garage though.

Re: Vancouver proposes 10k-dollar annual fee for gas stations without EV charging

#83

Post by kube-system »

crate_barre wrote: post #42
james_pm wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people can not charge at home. Where I live (Toronto), street parking is common. It's not possible to charge on the street near your house. Condos have parking garages and unless they put a charger at each single spot, most of those people can't charge either. Toyota has it right - there are huge issues to be solved before widespread roll out of EV is possible. The charging question is just one of them.

Naive question, but aren’t we talking about installing an electrical outlet essentially? Some of these options look like they plug into a wall: https://www.amazon.com/MUSTART-Portable-Charger-Electric-Cha... Bare minimum the apartment building can work to install wall outlets in the garage, or very long extension cords. Video: https://www.amazon.com/vdp/006d5bc8225646d086bb5afa191e52d8?... That’s not asking for a lot…

Depending on the current electrical system and the number of outlets you’re adding it could consist of a significant upgrade to the electrical infrastructure in the building.

Re: Vancouver proposes 10k-dollar annual fee for gas stations without EV charging

#84

Post by neither_color »

b112 wrote: post #47
giantg2 wrote: post #12

This seems misguided to me. One of the biggest benefits to an EV is not having to go to a gas station. Most people can charge at home for their typical needs. Next, it makes sense to put then at a person's work, then at stores or public parking. And of course there needs to be charging infrastructure on highway gas stations and/or rest stops. Making all gas stations, especially urban ones, pay a fine for not having c…

This seems misguided to me. It costs the city nothing, and is a revenue stream from those which don't comply. Win #1. It allows tourists, travellers a place to charge, which they know is maintained, and works, and is enroute to somewhere. There is no downside here, for the city.

>There is no downside here

The gas station needs to pay a design firm + engineers to submit plans to the city for permitting to construct the new EV charging location, they have to pay the electrical utility to increase its service, they need to pay more for electricity every month, they need to buy commercial car chargers and pay an electrical contractor thousands to install them. The gas station therefore likely has to raise prices on either its gas or its other products and services, hurting locals who can't afford EV cars to the benefit of the better off who likely already have car chargers installed in the garages of their expensive homes. Bear in mind also that they're not guaranteed to make money off the car charging, this is the city deciding their business plans for them. The cost of building a charging station takes away what could've been a car wash, more retail space, a mechanic's garage, etc. The city should be offering tax incentives, not punitive fines IMO.

Re: Vancouver proposes 10k-dollar annual fee for gas stations without EV charging

#85

Post by kube-system »

chipsa wrote: post #82
giantg2 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The outlet isn't a big deal. The infrastructure to support it is. You need to pay the supplier for additional supply lines, an electrician for the panel and other customer side infrastructure. That's the expensive part.

Most people don’t need a supply upgrade, because they can shift most of the charging to night time, and the majority of people don’t use as much power at night as during the day. Unless they have a very small service. But most people have it sized to support a stove, electric dryer and A/C, if they got service relatively recently. And most electric companies will do the service upgrade for cheap if necessary, because…

The grandparent comment mentioned a parking garage at a condo, presumably, spaces for dozens of cars.

Re: Vancouver proposes 10k-dollar annual fee for gas stations without EV charging

#86

Post by giantg2 »

ryanbrunner wrote: post #57
giantg2 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they rent, where do they park at that residence? That's where it makes sense to charge. How many of the renters without parking have a car? If it's really true that "Most people in Canada" don't have a home, then do you really think that the 66 gas stations in Vancouver can accommodate all those people?

Even if you own something, there's no guarantee that you have your own private parking space to install EV chargers. Where I live (an old, very dense downtown), some houses don't have a driveway, and most can only accommodate a single car. Street parking is very common for residents. On top of that, apartments aren't guaranteed to have EV chargers installed.

What if they changed to law to allow residents that install charging infrastructure to have some preference/reservation of the spot they they improved in front of their residence?

Perhaps these needs additional tech. Something like a cable run from the house to the parking spot, enclosed under a grate that can be unlocked by the resident, as well as a lockout switch inside the house. Of course it could be better for the infrastructure to be public or for the city to contract with a private provider.

Re: Vancouver proposes 10k-dollar annual fee for gas stations without EV charging

#88

Post by chx »

giantg2 wrote: post #65
chx wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most old high rises in the West End do not have the spare wattage to install even one charger in the underground parkade much less several. Getting some from BC Hydro is expensive and they really, really don't want to because they don't have much to spare either. It'll be likely 2030 before we get more. https://www.bchydro.com/energy-in-bc/projects/west-end-subst... Also, the demand grows as climate change hits Vanco…

If the bottleneck is energy supply, how are the gas stations expected to source their energy?

There are no gas stations left in the West End and only one on the entire downtown peninsula which has been on sale already several times. I was answering about home charging for a non-trivial amount of the population.

The rest of the city is supplied well, it's just the peninsula which doesn't have enough. It is also one of the densest places in Canada.

Re: Vancouver proposes 10k-dollar annual fee for gas stations without EV charging

#89

Post by giantg2 »

bastawhiz wrote: post #79
djfobbz wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people can't charge their vehicles at home (inside their garage), I see that as a burden on the city to provide adequate street based charging stations...similar to parking meters they already have.

Why doesn't the city install gas pumps along the streets as well? Parking meters are not comparable infrastructure. They often run on a small solar cell with almost no maintenance burden. Charging stations require a substantive amount of power and regular maintenance. Installing street chargers essentially requires entirely net new infrastructure.

"Why doesn't the city install gas pumps along the streets as well?"

Because the process for pumping gas is fundamentally different from charging. If filling up a gas tank took hours, then you likely would see this sort of infrastructure. Also, it doesn't need to be the city directly. They can contract this to a private provider.

Re: Vancouver proposes 10k-dollar annual fee for gas stations without EV charging

#90

Post by elihu »

giantg2 wrote: post #12

This seems misguided to me. One of the biggest benefits to an EV is not having to go to a gas station. Most people can charge at home for their typical needs. Next, it makes sense to put then at a person's work, then at stores or public parking. And of course there needs to be charging infrastructure on highway gas stations and/or rest stops. Making all gas stations, especially urban ones, pay a fine for not having c…

I agree with that, and would add that gas stations aren't particularly suitable for EV charging. They're often built on small lots and rely on high throughput to serve a lot of customers. EV charging is slower and therefore requires more space for the same level of throughput.

There's nothing inherently wrong with a gas station having one or two charging stations, but if EV charging is in demand then those spots are going to be filled most of the time. Which means that it's not a reliable service for the people who want it; better to go to a larger lot with more spaces. (And this proposal also includes mandates for sites with more than 60 parking stalls to get EV charging, which I think makes more sense.)

There's a natural tendency to want to shoehorn petroleum-based infrastructure into the world of electrically powered vehicles, but it kind of feels like trying to bolt a catalytic converter onto a horse. I think gas stations should just be allowed to die out and be replaced by other kinds of businesses based on what the market demands.

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