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Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

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Re: Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

#81

Post by [deleted] »

drewcoo wrote: post #42
greatpostman wrote: post #4

I think it’s pretty clear that sophisticated societies existed long before recorded history. They may not have had the tools of working with metal, but they definitely had sophisticated philosophical views and moral frameworks. I would bet this goes back even 30-50 thousand years. This idea that humanity sprang up out of nothing in Sumerian/Babylon is very contrived. There was an ice age ten thousand years ago, the c…

Civilization means people living in cities. To do that, agriculture is probably needed. There's also probably some level of specialization and accompanying social stratification. History is written records. There were many prehistoric societies, but because civilization tended to have some form of written records, the prehistoric societies are not considered civilizations. No scholars would clai that humanity sprang…

[deleted]

Re: Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

#82

Post by christkv »

dgellow wrote: post #44
christkv wrote: post #3

Reminds me about the theory about how the Persian Gulf was the origin of the first civilisations and the origin of the myth of paradise. As the water rose people was displaced and eventually ended up forming ur.

In case people aren't familiar with Ur (I wasn't): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur > Ur was an important Sumerian city-state in ancient Mesopotamia, located at the site of modern "Tell el-Muqayyar" in south Iraq's Dhi Qar Governorate. Although Ur was once a coastal city near the mouth of the Euphrates on the Persian Gulf, the coastline has shifted and the city is now well inland, on the south bank of the Euphrates,…

You might enjoy this podcast about the rise and fall of the Sumerians https://youtu.be/d2lJUOv0hLA

Re: Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

#85

Post by [deleted] »

greatpostman wrote: post #4

I think it’s pretty clear that sophisticated societies existed long before recorded history. They may not have had the tools of working with metal, but they definitely had sophisticated philosophical views and moral frameworks. I would bet this goes back even 30-50 thousand years. This idea that humanity sprang up out of nothing in Sumerian/Babylon is very contrived. There was an ice age ten thousand years ago, the c…

[deleted]

Re: Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

#86

Post by jl6 »

MisterTea wrote: post #49
drewcoo wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Civilization means people living in cities. To do that, agriculture is probably needed. There's also probably some level of specialization and accompanying social stratification. History is written records. There were many prehistoric societies, but because civilization tended to have some form of written records, the prehistoric societies are not considered civilizations. No scholars would clai that humanity sprang…

> There were many prehistoric societies, but because civilization tended to have some form of written records, the prehistoric societies are not considered civilizations. What about cave paintings?

I personally find cave paintings to be compelling evidence for a behaviourally modern mind. They demonstrate great skill. The artists did not live in cities or have agriculture or writing, but I have little doubt that they perceived the world as we do, and were capable of essentially the same speech and thought patterns as we are. It’s an awe-inspiring tragedy and mystery that those lives were lived in a manner so unknown to us, and yet potentially so relatable to us.

They absolutely would have had conversations around campfires. Talking about what, I wonder?

Re: Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

#87

Post by quickthrower2 »

anm89 wrote: post #74

It's pretty fascinating to comprehend how different Europe's land mass is from a couple thousand years ago. Imagining the current world with shore lines as different as that is pretty hard to Fathom. It puts the climate change narrative in perspective a bit. In someways, the change we are experiencing isn't as unprecedented as some people perceive. In other ways, if we are going to be on a highly accelerated version…

This xkcd shows how highly accelerated it is: https://xkcd.com/1732/

Re: Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

#89

Post by kibwen »

anonAndOn wrote: post #71
drewcoo wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Civilization means people living in cities. To do that, agriculture is probably needed. There's also probably some level of specialization and accompanying social stratification. History is written records. There were many prehistoric societies, but because civilization tended to have some form of written records, the prehistoric societies are not considered civilizations. No scholars would clai that humanity sprang…

Under these terms, all 400+ tribes north of the deserts of North America were prehistoric until the arrival of the European and some paper.

There were plenty of urban centers in the Americas prior to European arrival, e.g. Cahokia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cahokia

Re: Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

#90

Post by HappyDreamer »

dgellow wrote: post #44
christkv wrote: post #3

Reminds me about the theory about how the Persian Gulf was the origin of the first civilisations and the origin of the myth of paradise. As the water rose people was displaced and eventually ended up forming ur.

In case people aren't familiar with Ur (I wasn't): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur > Ur was an important Sumerian city-state in ancient Mesopotamia, located at the site of modern "Tell el-Muqayyar" in south Iraq's Dhi Qar Governorate. Although Ur was once a coastal city near the mouth of the Euphrates on the Persian Gulf, the coastline has shifted and the city is now well inland, on the south bank of the Euphrates,…

I also wasn't. Quite depressing laws they had, I think:

    6. If a man violates the right of another and deflowers the virgin wife of a young man, they shall kill that male.
    7. If the wife of a man followed after another man and he slept with her, they shall slay that woman, but that male shall be set free.
    ... and slaves of course ...
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Ur-Nammu#Surviving_law... )

Has it been like that for 4000+ years (at some places) :-(

> pictures of the Ziggurat are really impressive

Yes :-)

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