Proposed bill would shorten California workweek to 32 hours • Hacker News Board

Re: Proposed bill would shorten California workweek to 32 hours

#81

Post by hinkley » Sat, Apr 09, 2022, 6:19 PM UTC

artificialLimbs wrote: post #69

Animats wrote: post #35

What we need is more enforcement of existing labor laws. A 40-hour work week with teeth. No "unpaid overtime". No "time shaving". Out of hours phone calls count as work time, with a minimum time for a call. (3 hours in the movie industry).

What I’d like to see is less government power, which means they stay out of my life, which means more freedom and less coercion, which means I can negotiate my life as I see fit like a grown up who is responsible for himself.

And you’ll create a power vacuum that business will gleefully dive into and give you less freedom, more coercion, and less ability to negotiate your life as you see fit.

If you don’t remember why unions and OSHA exist then you are doomed to repeat it. Captains industry have no problems oiling their machines with human blood.

Re: Proposed bill would shorten California workweek to 32 hours

#82

Post by nostromo95 » Sat, Apr 09, 2022, 6:21 PM UTC

artificialLimbs wrote: post #68

nostromo95 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh whether government should have the right to do this takes a backseat to the fact that the government is the only way we can do this. The government is the only coordinating mechanism we have to enforce something like this, otherwise everyone is playing the prisoner’s dilemma.

By prisoners dilemma, do you mean that people are free to negotiate amongst themselves as they see fit? Oh the horror…

Yes I do mean exactly that. It's entirely possible for both these things to be true:

- Everyone believes that if they and everyone else had a 32 hour work week, they'd be happier

- Everyone stays at 40 hours per week when given the choice of independently moving to a 32 hour work week due to social / economic pressures

In this case a government law helps everyone coordinate to get out of a local maximum.

Re: Proposed bill would shorten California workweek to 32 hours

#83

Post by luckydata » Sat, Apr 09, 2022, 6:22 PM UTC

hollasch wrote: post #39

Increasingly, American political parties are most interested in seizing and wielding power, and I feel like most citizens are occupied with surrendering and assigning that power to their preferred political party. How in the world did we get here? Is there any way we can turn back? Most of the discussion here is about whether mandating business practice would be a good or a bad business move, but hardly anyone is que…

{insert strawman here}

The US government doesn't do nearly enough to ensure the welfare of workers. If not being treated like shit by your employer bothers you have plenty of options.

Re: Proposed bill would shorten California workweek to 32 hours

#84

Post by mschuster91 » Sat, Apr 09, 2022, 6:22 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #67

thot_experiment wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I mean we should also have a 32 hour work week but the laws surrounding it need teeth for sure. We should hold executives/managers criminally liable with the potential for jail time for repeat offenses. It's absolutely fucking absurd that shoplifting, especially when performed by disadvantaged folks carries harsher penalties than systematic wage theft. It's upside down clown world out there, abusing your positio…

Are you saying the punishment for shoplifting should be less if you're disadvantaged compared to if you're not?

For what it's worth, that was the legal situation in Germany until 1975 [1]. A shame in my opinion that even small-scale theft under extraordinary circumstances got handled as a full blown crime since then.

[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mundraub

Re: Proposed bill would shorten California workweek to 32 hours

#85

Post by jslaby » Sat, Apr 09, 2022, 6:23 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #67

thot_experiment wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I mean we should also have a 32 hour work week but the laws surrounding it need teeth for sure. We should hold executives/managers criminally liable with the potential for jail time for repeat offenses. It's absolutely fucking absurd that shoplifting, especially when performed by disadvantaged folks carries harsher penalties than systematic wage theft. It's upside down clown world out there, abusing your positio…

Are you saying the punishment for shoplifting should be less if you're disadvantaged compared to if you're not?

Yes

Re: Proposed bill would shorten California workweek to 32 hours

#86

Post by dizzant » Sat, Apr 09, 2022, 6:23 PM UTC

kleiba wrote: post #66

If I subtract the time I spend checking my social media while pretending to work, I'm probably already doing a 32 hour work week...

This grinds my gears. I'm a part time at my office (govt contractor), and do more work in 20 hours than some others on my team do in 40. Restrictions on firing underperformers put us in the position of "needing" 40 hours in the workweek.

Re: Proposed bill would shorten California workweek to 32 hours

#87

Post by thot_experiment » Sat, Apr 09, 2022, 6:24 PM UTC

alar44 wrote: post #75

thot_experiment wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unionize, refuse to be on call, refuse to answer slack messages outside of work hours. If working in tech, and at startups specifically has taught me one thing it's that urgency is ALWAYS fake, you can put the fire out tomorrow morning. If there aren't consequences for bad planning then the bad planning continues. See also: financial bailouts of pretty much any kind, the cost of mistakes needs to be adequately large.

It's a great thought, but I'd be fired pretty quickly if I tried that. You will also not find a new job with those demands. You know what I do to offset the after hours stuff? I slack the fuck off all day. It's not like anyone knows what I do anyway. "Hey Alar, what you up to today? -Oh y'know, just getting these switches up to date, gotta keep the packets flowing! Also have some phone stuff to do and getting the ser…

Sure this is a valid strategy, one I've also employed, but I would prefer a world where we can be open about the fact that we don't actually work nearly as hard as we pretend to rather than the current situation. Dishonesty shouldn't be rewarded.

> It's a great thought, but I'd be fired pretty quickly if I tried that.

Hence the call for unionization.

Re: Proposed bill would shorten California workweek to 32 hours

#88

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Sat, Apr 09, 2022, 6:28 PM UTC

farseer wrote: post #49

Animats wrote: post #35

What we need is more enforcement of existing labor laws. A 40-hour work week with teeth. No "unpaid overtime". No "time shaving". Out of hours phone calls count as work time, with a minimum time for a call. (3 hours in the movie industry).

This! 40 hours workweek with mandatory overtime pay (usually double per hour) with a minimum duration. Reducing the workweek below that would be considered unnecessary government intervention and is liable to be bad for business and workers. No one wants a pay cut that goes with it.

I would take that pay cut in a heartbeat. And yes, I realize the cut won't be proportional, I just want to work fewer hours and still have healthcare and reasonable pay for the time worked.

Re: Proposed bill would shorten California workweek to 32 hours

#89

Post by InCityDreams » Sat, Apr 09, 2022, 6:29 PM UTC

throwawayboise wrote: post #27

mrfusion wrote: post #15

I really feel like work would be quite tolerable at 4 days a week. 5 days plus commute has always felt suffocating to me.

Consider that people used to work every day. Farming, hunting, subsisting. When organized religion and cities started to spread, you had one day a week as the day of rest. The industrial age and unionization brought us 5 days, which is now "suffocating." So if 4 days is the norm, that would start to feel suffocating also. Then it would be 3 days. Then, when work is the thing you spend the minority of your time on, yo…

"Then, when work is the thing you spend the minority of your time on, you start to ask yourself "why am I doing this at all?""

Crap! And i thought i was anonymous here.

Re: Proposed bill would shorten California workweek to 32 hours

#90

Post by JaimeThompson » Sat, Apr 09, 2022, 6:29 PM UTC

artificialLimbs wrote: post #65

monocasa wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The definition of the length of the work week and who it applies to is already a concept defined by government.

Unfortunately. People should be able to negotiate between themselves without interference from the government.

>without interference from the government.

I don't see the corps giving up all the advantages they have such as mandatory arbitration and the like. It wouldn't be an equal negotiating table for the vast majority of people.