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America's internet is splitting along party lines

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Re: America's internet is splitting along party lines

#81

Post by sanderjd »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #45
throwaway82652 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You won't find any sympathy for that position here because nobody complaining about social media is actually arguing against censorship, they're arguing against moderation. HN is also not an unmoderated forum. You don't get to post whatever you want here. I also don't get to post whatever I want here, and I'm willing to make that compromise so nobody ruins the place with toxicity and spam and conspiracy theories. You…

I am not fishing for sympathy. I am arguing for a set of values that are a supposed foundations of US. Now, I personally find it troubling that so many people seem to want to upend that foundation.

The private freedom of association is just as foundational to the US (and liberal society broadly) as the freedom to speak without government intervention.

Re: America's internet is splitting along party lines

#82

Post by briandear »

periphrasis wrote: post #77
nsxwolf wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can go on Twitter and see a lot of examples of this and generate that impression, but then I don’t see it in real life. What’s real? How do we know our perception of reality isn’t being distorted by algorithms and sampling bias?

The question would be a lot easier to resolve if the major MAGA thought leaders would stop making excuses for genocide. Anecdotally, my dad is MAGA-leaning right, and while he opposes the invasion and is happy to see the Russian army destroyed, his immediate response when I brought up the mass graves was “how much of that is propaganda though?”. Skepticism about what we are told about a war is always warranted, but r…

What overwhelming evidence? At this point it’s allegations. The crimes haven’t actually been investigated.

They should be. But “overwhelming evidence” should be rephrased as “lots of allegations.”

Re: America's internet is splitting along party lines

#83

Post by periphrasis »

briandear wrote: post #80
periphrasis wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The irony of course being that the American political demographic, MAGA, with the biggest grievances regarding tech “censorship” also appear to be most willing to make excuses for or deny Russian war crimes.

Ukraine has stationed soldiers in schools. Russia bombed schools for that reason. Is Ukraine committing war crimes? I am not pro-Russia by any stretch, but the actions taken by both sides in that war aren’t so black and white. Watching this war as a dispassionate observer, it’s a study in propaganda. Zelensky broadcasting using a green screen to make it look like he’s on the streets for instance. The famous “I don’t…

Congrats on your contrarianism. Forgive me if my simplicity and inability to think critically causes me to think less of you.

Re: America's internet is splitting along party lines

#84

Post by periphrasis »

briandear wrote: post #82
periphrasis wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question would be a lot easier to resolve if the major MAGA thought leaders would stop making excuses for genocide. Anecdotally, my dad is MAGA-leaning right, and while he opposes the invasion and is happy to see the Russian army destroyed, his immediate response when I brought up the mass graves was “how much of that is propaganda though?”. Skepticism about what we are told about a war is always warranted, but r…

What overwhelming evidence? At this point it’s allegations. The crimes haven’t actually been investigated. They should be. But “overwhelming evidence” should be rephrased as “lots of allegations.”

Photographs corroborated by satellite and drone imagery, which is consistent with the public arguments being made by [Russian state media](https://medium.com/@kravchenko_mm/what-should-russia-do-with...) (yes I’m aware the translator has a horse in this race and no I do not read Russian myself but obviously she is not the only one who has reported on the content of what Russian state media is saying needs to be done) calling for ethnic cleansing/genocide. But I’m sure my inability to think critically has caused me to irrationally preclude the possibility that these civilians simply killed themselves.

Re: America's internet is splitting along party lines

#85

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

sanderjd wrote: post #81
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not fishing for sympathy. I am arguing for a set of values that are a supposed foundations of US. Now, I personally find it troubling that so many people seem to want to upend that foundation.

The private freedom of association is just as foundational to the US (and liberal society broadly) as the freedom to speak without government intervention.

Is it a private association when the extent of a reach of a given entity rivals that of a nation-state? I am not disagreeing with your argument in principle. There has to be balance. Right now, that balance is out of whack.

Re: America's internet is splitting along party lines

#86

Post by 1970-01-01 »

tablespoon wrote: post #79
1970-01-01 wrote: post #63

"America's internet" The first two words of the headline are wrong. Applications are not the I nternet. This must be some kind of record for HN headlines.

> "America's internet" > The first two words of the headline are wrong. Applications are not the Internet. This must be some kind of record for HN headlines. It's not actually wrong: you just have to realize that words have different meanings . The internet is simultaneously : a TCP/IP network and the collection of applications built on top of that network that people use. The first meaning is technical jargon, the s…

OK fine, but going with this logic is how you get to "a series of tubes"

Re: America's internet is splitting along party lines

#87

Post by QuarterReptile »

rayiner wrote: post #15

At least we have an Internet. Imagine the bad old days of the 1980s when everyone had to get their news from CNN! For all the bellyaching conservatives do the fact is that information is freer today than it was in the past. Ultimately we all found out about Hunter Biden’s laptop notwithstanding the Facebook and Twitter blackout. (And when it turned out to be real, I’m sure the Facebook and Twitter censors felt shame,…

I don't mean for this to sound like a defense of the article, which it emphatically is not.

>Imagine the bad old days of the 1980s when everyone had to get their news from CNN!

Important to remember in this that they would have had 1980s CNN, which I presume is significantly different from modern CNN. NPR, for example, was a mostly even-keeled news source as recently as 20 years ago; no one was surprised to find a dedicated NPR listener who was conservative in 1980, which is certainly not true today. Without having any personal experience of CNN, past or present, I imagine they have followed a similar trend.

Re: America's internet is splitting along party lines

#88

Post by tablespoon »

1970-01-01 wrote: post #86
tablespoon wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "America's internet" > The first two words of the headline are wrong. Applications are not the Internet. This must be some kind of record for HN headlines. It's not actually wrong: you just have to realize that words have different meanings . The internet is simultaneously : a TCP/IP network and the collection of applications built on top of that network that people use. The first meaning is technical jargon, the s…

OK fine, but going with this logic is how you get to "a series of tubes"

>> It's not actually wrong: you just have to realize that words have different meanings. The internet is simultaneously: a TCP/IP network and the collection of applications built on top of that network that people use. The first meaning is technical jargon, the second is a more colloquial meaning. Technical meanings are not more correct than other kinds of meanings.

> OK fine, but going with this logic is how you get to "a series of tubes"

No, obviously not. You get to "series of tubes" when you try force a layman grasp the technical TCP/IP network definition instead of accepting their use of the colloquial definition centered on applications.

Re: America's internet is splitting along party lines

#89

Post by sanderjd »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #85
sanderjd wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The private freedom of association is just as foundational to the US (and liberal society broadly) as the freedom to speak without government intervention.

Is it a private association when the extent of a reach of a given entity rivals that of a nation-state? I am not disagreeing with your argument in principle. There has to be balance. Right now, that balance is out of whack.

Yes. The public can choose to create a legal structure that does not let private entities grow so large, but we have not chosen to do so, and that choice does not mean that private entities are de facto public.

Re: America's internet is splitting along party lines

#90

Post by 1970-01-01 »

tablespoon wrote: post #88
1970-01-01 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK fine, but going with this logic is how you get to "a series of tubes"

>> It's not actually wrong: you just have to realize that words have different meanings. The internet is simultaneously: a TCP/IP network and the collection of applications built on top of that network that people use. The first meaning is technical jargon, the second is a more colloquial meaning. Technical meanings are not more correct than other kinds of meanings. > OK fine, but going with this logic is how you get…

Sorry, I don't follow. Colloquial diction is unacceptable in business, legal, and engineering contexts because it causes confusion. Using laymen terms such as "internet" in a headline yields more misinformation and confusion about what the system actually is. I agree colloquial word choice is not wrong for a blog, however applications are not the network, and they will need to do better if they want my click.
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