Live data from Hacker News

In Praise of Memorization

pearlleff.com

81–90 of 152 posts

Re: In Praise of Memorization

#81
post #64

When encountering a new concept (a definition, a theorem) memorization is more important than understanding. Yes, you can spend time trying to crack the meaning, but you won’t unless you spend enough time contemplating examples and trying to imagine counter-examples. It’s a struggle. A more efficient way of gaining understanding is, first, to have things you do not (yet) fully understand memorized to the letter, and…

Excellent comment. This is exactly how I explain it to the students I tutor.

I tend to use the term "contextual recall" rather than the term "memorization", since the former emphasizes that it's okay to rely on a combination of memorization and pithy resources.

Hand anatomy is the best example I can think of. A good diagram can help you recall enough information to answer complex questions that would otherwise require an incredible amount of memorization. You still need to memorize some things in order to answer questions -- mostly the kinematic aspects and various properties of the things being represented (tendons, bones, muscle, etc.) -- but far less than you would need otherwise.

The one pager of theorems and proof construction techniques sometimes allowed in mathematics courses is another example.

This is why generative models are exciting as the next "tool for thought" for me, up there with calculators and search engines. Contextual recall is a powerful tool, especially when combined with memorization, and is a limiter for lots of folks (including me).

Re: In Praise of Memorization

#82
post #59

I've worked with devs who never looked up anything on the internet and tried to do everything from memory and their code was shit. I think here it may have been something else that made this team highly productive. Maybe they had more autonomy than most dev teams are allowed to have. I know I would have never been allowed to create a compiler for any of my previous jobs (to high risk). I do agree you shouldn't just G…

[flagged]

You crossed a major line here in bringing in someone's personal material as ammunition in an argument (if this can even be called that). That's a form of personal attack, which we don't allow here, and which we ban accounts for doing, so please don't do it again.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: In Praise of Memorization

#83

Disclaimer: Anecdata. I volunteer tutor high school kids in my local community. Particularly math and history. The biggest differentiator between the students who scale up quickly and those who scale up a bit more slowly is their aptitude for memorization. Recent history curricula and pedagogy in HS has placed an emphasis on “analysis” and “critical thinking.” But the students who struggle all struggle for the same r…

I have dyslexia (specifically a weakness in memory) and agree with everything you say. When not armed with a decent computer I can use as a crutch for my memory I'm noticeably weaker at critical thinking given the time spent recollecting fundamentals.

What software do you use? I have a poor memory and heavily used Notational Velocity as an external brain, but it's Mac only and I'm looking for alternatives.

Re: In Praise of Memorization

#84
post #69
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah.. I thought it was more of so you could practice remembering stuff. Like some people remembers what somebody said in a meeting 3 months ago and some don’t even knew we had a meeting about it

My understanding is that "learning memorization" is really the process of learning to do the work to memorize, through explicit strategies like spaced repetition. I don't think people become better at "effortless" memorization. Instead they learn what it is they need to do if they want to remember something.

It's possible to get to the point where you can become better at effortless memorization, but that takes a LOT of work. I studied 6 languages in high school and undergrad, and by the time I was in my senior year (taking Arabic + Chinese concurrently + over a decade of cumulative language classes) I remembered pretty much everything and reviewing for things like formulae/terms in other classes wasn't necessary.

It's just really hard to get there.

Re: In Praise of Memorization

#85

I've never regarded memorization highly. Whenever we had to learn the times tables or the squares at school, I would just work them out in my head instead of memorizing them. Of course, I still ended up learning the squares and the times tables by heart, but not because I actively memorized them, but because I just used them so much that I couldn't help but remember them eventually. I'm of the opinion that this leads…

I never learned times tables in schools. Just struggled on through until they stopped asking me to memorize them.

Then way later in my 20s, when it was handy to know how to remember some multiples quickly, I realized that obviously there's a lot of patterns in there, and of course the magic of looking for an easier problem to do mentally to solve a more complex one.

No amount of effort at memorization ever succeeded in even trying to give me those tools, and they're so general - you can apply them to everything.

My entire 90s educational experience is a memory of teachers saying "you need to know your times tables" and no one actually trying to teach even basic reasoning about how numbers worked (which I suspect is why programming lept out at me - it's all number manipulation but it's all about the algorithms and patterns and finally things started to make sense).

Re: In Praise of Memorization

#86
post #24

Memorization might be a part of it, but imho the important part is (emphasis mine): > So they ended up reading *reference manuals* and writing down or memorizing the answers to their questions because they couldn't look up information very easily. Good reference manuals are dope and they're so much better than tutorials or FAQ like stackoverflow because they are written to be general, you don't have to generalize you…

Recently I realized that when you had paper documents—books, manuals, libraries, filing systems, whatever—the only way to make them accessible at all was to have organizing principles. Some of these were brilliant.

Most people gave all that up because "search."

But aside from search being flawed (good luck finding an old Google Doc), when information was actually organized, you might be able to remember where it was. Without structure, you can't remember where it is because it isn't really anywhere.

Re: In Praise of Memorization

#87
Anyone who's interested in this way of learning, I'd recommend you to check out retrieval-based learning (1):

"Retrieval is the key process for understanding learning and for promoting learning, yet retrieval is not often granted the central role it deserves. Learning is typically identified with the encoding or construction of knowledge, and retrieval is considered merely the assessment of learning that occurred in a prior experience. The retrieval-based learning perspective outlined here is grounded in the fact that all expressions of knowledge involve retrieval and depend on the retrieval cues available in a given context. Further, every time a person retrieves knowledge, that knowledge is changed, because retrieving knowledge improves one’s ability to retrieve it again in the future. Practicing retrieval does not merely produce rote, transient learning; it produces meaningful, long-term learning. Yet retrieval practice is a tool many students lack metacognitive awareness of and do not use as often as they should. Active retrieval is an effective but undervalued strategy for promoting meaningful learning."

1: https://sci-hub.hkvisa.net/10.1177/0963721412443552

Re: In Praise of Memorization

#88

I've never regarded memorization highly. Whenever we had to learn the times tables or the squares at school, I would just work them out in my head instead of memorizing them. Of course, I still ended up learning the squares and the times tables by heart, but not because I actively memorized them, but because I just used them so much that I couldn't help but remember them eventually. I'm of the opinion that this leads…

i highly recommend reading "make it stick". i thought the same way as you until i read the book

Re: In Praise of Memorization

#89
Honestly the ancient Latin's dict "est modus in rebus" (there is a measure in anything) IMVHO is still generally valid, witch means that yeas we also need memorization but there is no reason to stretch it like in the old time before printed press. I fail to found a purpose to remember exact date of birth and death of historical figures, remember poetry etc

Similarly I see no point in doing the opposite, like certain "GTD fanatic" who pretend not to remember what they need to do in next few hours because their GTD system is more efficient than their memory and so they need to keep memory free to focus on current thing.

Est modus in rebus.

We need to eat, eating too little is harmful, but also eating too much is harmful. We need oxygen to breathe but too much exigence fry our lungs and brain. Sport is important, a sedentary life is not healthy, but too much physical activity means being broken in the old age with a consumed body.

The most important thing to operate with their own brain IMVHO is having in memory "the big picture" so to being able to recall anything via computer as needed. Without the big outline our searches are limited, probably biased, we can't correlate things we encounter etc, but there is no need to do more and no reasons to do less.

Re: In Praise of Memorization

#90

Convenience kills. The Art of Memory by F.A. Yates is still a nice read. In the article, the engineers admired by the author were intel ops who were stuck in an airgap and had to use their minds. That's a principle I try to use in life - to some extent deliberately making things hard for myself. As with all exercise, what was impossibly hard becomes commonplace. Part of this discipline is knowing what not to do (yes,…

Here's some stuff about how The Art of Memory, Memory Palaces, and the Method of Loci relate to adventure-like games, and some apps I developed along those lines, which I discussed with Scott Adams when he dropped by HN (the kind and brilliant old school text adventure game developer, not to be confused with the terrible Trump loving misogynistic troll and right wing nut job cartoonist who was outed for using sock pu…

I think the most hilarious part of the Scott Adams (Dilbert) saga to me is that he bothered to sockpuppet on METAFILTER.
Post reply on HN