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A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

thecritic.co.uk

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Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#81

Post by mda »

antman wrote: post #69
asimpletune wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a little difficult to say objectively what the truth is, but I'm here in Istanbul now and it doesn't really seem that the Turks think of themselves as hostile occupiers. I would say the vibe in the city and attitude among the Turks is more spiritual successors of Byzantium, rather than an occupying force. I think the fact that they conquered Byzantium is perceived more as legitimizing their rule, since t…

They are not hostile occupiers any more,Istanbul has been Ottoman for many centuries. But the city was called Constantinople. Istanbul in Greek phonetics means "We are in the city” and was renamed after the capture. It is Ottoman, not part of the Byzantine tradition but Ottomans promoted a continuity narrative without any of the preexisting thousand year old Greek Christian traditions. Those populations had to be for…

I am not sure what exactly you mean by your explanation, what traditions, who is forcibly converted until 1950's?

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#82

Post by antman »

mda wrote: post #81
antman wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not hostile occupiers any more,Istanbul has been Ottoman for many centuries. But the city was called Constantinople. Istanbul in Greek phonetics means "We are in the city” and was renamed after the capture. It is Ottoman, not part of the Byzantine tradition but Ottomans promoted a continuity narrative without any of the preexisting thousand year old Greek Christian traditions. Those populations had to be for…

I am not sure what exactly you mean by your explanation, what traditions, who is forcibly converted until 1950's?

I mean the Byzantine folk and religious traditions do not exist in the current owners. There were extensive pogroms and population exchanges. Although Istanbul in particular was exempt from those based on treaties, in reality the treaties were ignored. Regarding the last major events in the 50s I have found this, don’t know how detailed it is:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_pogrom

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#83

Post by mbg721 »

quanto wrote: post #51
mbg721 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely this is a Ship of Theseus situation, isn't it? There may have been little change from year to year, but a red-blooded Jupiter-Optimus-Maximus-fearing classical Roman citizen transplanted into the future would have been horrified at various moments, first when the Republic became an Empire, again when Christianity took over, when the Empire was split in the Tetrarchy, and when it became apparent that the Greek-…

> I think the traditional break when the West finally gave up is as good as any. Except that the Greek-speaking part was as Roman as the Latin-speaking part in culture, heritage, bureaucracy, governance, and self-identity. The later Western European historians' designation of the East as "Byzantine" (read: not "real" Romans) is much motivated by the West Europe's desire to see themselves as intellectual descendants o…

Maybe my perception is a little off, but I think of the Romans as having outsourced their "high" culture from the very moment they could afford it--formal education, medicine, and theater were for Greek slaves to do. A dignified Roman was more suited to the manly pursuits of farming, conquest, and engineering.

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#84

Post by billfruit »

The book itself seems to have middling reviews in Amazon, the top most review goes like this:

"The author who, on the first page of the first chapter of this book, identifies the Book of Malachi, the last book of the Hebrew Bible (the Old Testament) as the final book of the New Testament hardly inspires confidence in the reader. This glaring error and a perusal of his sources, all essentially in English, induced me to return the book."

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#85

Post by dr_dshiv »

m_eiman wrote: post #66
dr_dshiv wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you imagine a USA where half spoke Spanish, half English and less than 1% both?

I can image in a USA where the population is divided in half, each half with so widely different world views that they might as well be speaking different languages…

Like different species! I mean, I don’t think they interbreed…

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#86

Post by webmaven »

somedude895 wrote: post #77
Archelaos wrote: post #76

If the illustration should show Constantinople in the period the book deals with, it is off by many centuries. Windmills were a development of the 12th century. It is like placing a knight on a motorbike instead of a horse.

> It is like placing a knight on a motorbike instead of a horse. I just wondered if in a thousand years the lines of the different eras will become irrelevant enough that this could be a representation of the olden times. There would be plenty of photographic evidence proving that people on motorbikes never wore knight's armor, but it's possible that detail isn't important in that context.

> I just wondered if in a thousand years the lines of the different eras will become irrelevant enough that this could be a representation of the olden times.

Obligatory XKCD:

https://xkcd.com/771/

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#87

Post by m_eiman »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #85
m_eiman wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can image in a USA where the population is divided in half, each half with so widely different world views that they might as well be speaking different languages…

Like different species! I mean, I don’t think they interbreed…

Give it a few hundred generations and we’ll see!

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#88

Post by teleforce »

qiskit wrote: post #24
dr_dshiv wrote: post #6

Isn’t it wild that the Roman Empire lasted until the 1400s, only to finally fall to the Ottoman Empire? But as the Empire fell, a large set of manuscripts were brought by the great Plethon to Cosimo d’Medici. Marsilio Ficino’s translation of Greek classics into Latin—like the complete works of Plato and the Hermetica—helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it.

> helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it. The italian renaissance started in the 14th century for sure and maybe even in 13th century depending on who you ask. Though the exact date can be disputed, nobody disputes the fact that it started long before the fall of the byzantine empire in the mid 15th century. And the italian renaissance had more to do with direct trade opening up between europe and china…

I'm kind of perplex but can understand why it's really hard for European people to admit that Renaissance in Europe has much to do with two concurrent Muslim Empires (Spain and Abbasid) rather than the remote Mongols. Also talking about Columbus discovery of America, I'd not be surprise if in the later years people found out that there were some of the crews are the force converted Jews and Muslim onboard based on Alhambra Decree that's being introduced exactly in the same year as the journey happened. The necessary technology for sustained shipping and navigation definitely from the Muslim Empire that preceeded the event.

Some fun facts, Muslim Empires also strecthed to the Italian Sicily Island (ultra Pharum) who ruled for few hundred years before it's later conquered by the Normans, who then later conquered the Britain [1]. Obviously this southern Italian empire is very much cosmopolitan not unlike the old day of Constantinople/Instanbul and modern day New York with probably the best hospitals in town [2].

If I want to guess this is the time Italian Renaissance started because of the superior way of life is happening right at their doorstep with a thriving community basically different in their mentality, religion, culture and lifestyle.

[1]Muslim conquest of Sicily:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_Sicily

[2]Schola Medica Salernitana:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schola_Medica_Salernitana

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#89

Post by teleforce »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #58
teleforce wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this statement make sense to you, "large set of manuscripts were brought by the great Plethon to Cosimo d’Medici. Marsilio Ficino’s translation of Greek classics into Latin—like the complete works of Plato and the Hermetica". This is just one single guy compared to the two Muslim empires that thrived on the Greek and other civilizations knowledge that really contributed to the Renaissance movement. Plethon lived d…

Among those who really made a difference, check out the Brethren of Purity. English translation of their encyclopedia is coming out this year. There is a ton of work needed in Arabic and not enough scholarship. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclopedia_of_the_Brethren_o... But, yeah, I’ll stand up for old Marsilio’s influence any day. The story is amazing.

Thanks for the link, didn't know about it before. Amazing how this normal human beings like this one and Averroes can write volumes upon volumes of books and treatises during their lifetime wihout much help from the modern technology and the Internet. I cannot even write a single book so far, probably need to spend less time on HN I guess. Got to love this quote from the Encyclopedia "Turn from the sleep of negligence and the slumber of ignorance, for the world is a house of delusion and tribulations".

Regarding the origin of the Renaissance era please check my other comments on the potential root of the Italian Renaissance movement.

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#90

Post by bedobi »

asimpletune wrote: post #67
bedobi wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's kind of a fantasy but I like to think Rome never truly disappeared. (and I don't mean that necessarily in an good or nostalgic way) A lot of what happens in Brazil, the US etc today is as if lifted straight out of the late republic. What's going on in Ukraine too is also history repeating itself. The examples are countless. Many of us, especially on a western forum like this, in many ways are Romans.

One could argue that "latino" is a person descending from Rome. This would include many Latin Americans, Italians, Spaniards, etc... even English.

People who speak a romance language definitely have a stronger connection than many but Latin was far from the only language of the Romans. Greek was used extensively in the West and East alike, and there were regional languages like Gaulish, Aramaic and many many others elsewhere. Many of those who did speak Latin did so as a second language, with strong accents etc. So in many ways what is Roman is more about mindset, culture, institutions, aesthetic preferences etc than language. (and pretty much all of the Western world carry on Roman versions of all of the above, for better or for worse :P)
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