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Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

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Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#81
post #78

My problem with Mearsheimer and the other realists is they have a very poor explanation why the status quo changes. Yes great power competition explains why tensions are high but does little explain why and when they spill over to war. Notably absent from this article is any discussion of "why now?". Commenters in the thread are saying that his 2015 article on the subject could be written last week. That's precisely…

> since countries can't join NATO if they have territorial conflicts

This rule... isn't. Heck, countries have been admitted to NATO with ongoing territorial disputes with NATO countries.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#82
It's very clear that the professor thinks in terms of geopolitics, as if people didn't matter. The moment when he says that Putin won't invade the Baltics because they are in NATO but he doesn't consider it a good thing is the most telling. Well, everybody in the Baltics can tell you this is the single most important thing right now for them. This is the thin line that makes a difference between cities thriving or being bombed and the nation turned into poor vassals like Belarus.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#83
post #5
post #2

The journalist, Isaac Chotiner, thinks he's a lot smarter and in better command of history than John Mearsheimer. That's really annoying.

I agree - it was abundantly clear Isaac wanted to push the prevailing narrative, had no interest in alternative perspectives, and wanted to score some smartypants points in the process. Mearsheimer sounded cogent and intelligent, and I think he made some very interesting points. His article from 2014 seems like it could have been written this week with how prescient it is: https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploa…

Woah. If you want to read one article to better understand what's going on, this is it.

It's hard for people from the west to see things from a different point of view than modern liberalism. This article shows where and why.

It also shows how intolerant the liberal mindset is to other global viewpoints.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#84
People take the guilt question far too personal. Consider it this way: if you stick your finger into a nest of hornets, whom is to blame if you get hurt?

You can say the hornet (Russia) is always too blame. Or, you can acknowledge that hornets are dangerous and best not provoked. Willingly provoking them if there is the alternative of not doing that, can be considered irresponsible.

As to why Ukraine turning western is considered a provocation, there's a lot of simplistic "fatalistic madman" narratives. I found this video to be very insightful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If61baWF4GE

It sums up a few very rational reasons that when combined, add up to a serious existential threat to Russia as a country, as a concept.

Mind you, I'm no Russia apologist, I'm just trying to understand the hornet. So far the video holds up. Putin openly expressing to Macron that he will flip Ukraine entirely. Remarks like "There is no world without Russia in it", emphasizing that this campaign is existential, not a random aggression.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#85
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know about what Victoria Nuland (leaked intercepted tapes), Senator John McCain, Senator Lindsay Graham, Hunter Biden, CIA John Brennan, etc. did in Ukraine? Do you know that Zelenskyy had a sub-28% approval rating from his own population because he threatened to acquire nuclear weapons, threatened to join NATO, join the EU (comes with military connections also, BTW), take back Crimea and the entirety of the D…

> Do you know about what Victoria Nuland (leaked intercepted tapes), Senator John McCain, Senator Lindsay Graham, Hunter Biden, CIA John Brennan, etc. did in Ukraine? Did they invade Ukraine?

they effectively started a civil war by installing people who pretended that the eastern ukraine doesnt exist

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#86
post #4

A lot of current news feels very biased, even from sources I previously found unbiased. Fortunately I was recently shared a link to John Mearsheimers 2015 YT video where he very clearly explains what has led to the current situation. In that light I now feel it's a lot easier to filter the news.

> A lot of current news feels very biased, even from sources I previously found unbiased.

I wholeheartedly agree. I feel like I could write an entire book of what it reveals about the state of Western culture. But when something is so obnoxious I try to remind myself to be especially careful about how I react. Because one of the other obnoxious things about contemporary Western culture is how partisan political sentiments are driven by spiteful contrarianism.

> he very clearly explains what has led to the current situation.

He very clearly explains his opinion, at least. Much of what he says is pretty much consensus opinion. The U.S. and Europe did push NATO expansion too aggressively. (Though that's different from saying that it was wrong to include, e.g., Latvia and Estonia, which IIRC is a claim Mearsheimer wasn't willing to state outright.) In fact, this was a moderately important point of domestic U.S. political debate which even featured in the 2008 presidential campaigns; particularly regarding ABMs in Poland.

One of the flaws in his PoV is that none of it actually justifies Russia's behavior. It makes most sense only if you conceive of Russia as a scared child, rather than a hyper rational, deliberate, realpolitik actor, which most people (until recently) consider to be Putin's M.O. It also ignores the fact that Germany, France, and even the U.K. were more restrained than the U.S., and Russia well understood that there were some bright lines those countries wouldn't cross (and the U.S. couldn't force them to cross), especially after the dust settled from the 2004 expansion that put NATO on Russia's doorstep.

Moreover, we're 6+ years on from that speech and the status quo had only further solidified. That's why Russia in 2014 and now in 2022 knew with absolute certainty that NATO would not directly intervene in its invasions of Ukraine. At most there'd be a proxy war, but that's typical Cold War realpolitik and Russia couldn't with a straight face call foul.

No observer can seriously dispute that Europe and the US had as a practical matter committed to and contented themselves with keeping Ukraine and Belarus as buffer states, at least in terms of military posture. Now, however, everything has been upended. Russia's revealed, hard irredentist ambitions has fundamentally changed the situation. If Ukraine ends up in the EU or even NATO, it'll be a self-fulfilling prophecy, not because things were inexorably moving in that direction.

This is all a long-winded way of saying that just because Russia had very legitimate security grievances does not, by itself, explain or excuse the Ukraine invasion. To my ears (having studied International Politics in college and staying apprised of events over the past 25 years), Mearsheimer's speech borders on a dangerous apology of Russia and other authoritarian regimes. His factual recounting is on its face reasonable, but those facts only beg the question. The question is whether Russia was justified, according to even the most conservative, zero sum, realpolitik perspective, in invading Ukraine in 2022. The answer is a resounding, "No". Just as the answer to whether the U.S. was justified in invading and overthrowing Iraq is, "No". And in neither case were those decisions inevitable, nor does culpability lie anywhere other than with the invaders. The U.S. for its part recognized the inexcusable harm the Iraq invasion did to global and American security stability when Obama took a huge bite of humble pie (both personally and on behalf of the country) and refused to escalate in Syria. Unfortunately Putin, like Bush in 2003, has already committed Russia to carrying through an unforgivable injury to global and its own security stability.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#87
post #78

My problem with Mearsheimer and the other realists is they have a very poor explanation why the status quo changes. Yes great power competition explains why tensions are high but does little explain why and when they spill over to war. Notably absent from this article is any discussion of "why now?". Commenters in the thread are saying that his 2015 article on the subject could be written last week. That's precisely…

Baltics are easily neutralized with taking the Suwalki gap. The Russians were also not happy with them joining NATO, but couldn’t do much about it. And Ukraine (Kievan Rus) is the center of eastern Slavic civilization and therefore much more important to Putin than a largely unrelated culture in Latvia, Lithuania, etc.

Otherwise yes I do think Mearsheimer is a little too mechanical in his theories and doesn’t factor in ideologies, especially in the modern Information Age.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#88
I think Mearsheimer is ignoring the other aspect of the China equation, which is that China is now watching a concerted reaction of NATO and friendly powers against aggression in the Russian sphere of influence.

China would review the US/NATO response differently if the US played the old strategy of setting "red lines" and allowing them to be crossed with minimal reaction. We still have yet to see how this goes but Chinese officials who would have wanted to attack Taiwan are probably watching this play out now.

Russia has awoken a sleeping giant.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#89

Seeing this play out in the media reminds me of the Iraq War hysteria in 2003. Completely one-sided coverage, classic war-time propaganda (ghost of kiev), banning Russian arts and paralympians, etc. I've lost all faith in the media. Period. You may think that there is an absolute answer to this situation, but there isn't. I recommend that you study commentators and scholars such as: John Mearsheimer, Zbigniew Brezins…

Feels like the books written by the old hands are losing, badly, to the comic books and the movies, doesn't it?

Yup. We have this MCU good guys vs bad guys thing ingrained in us now.

Nobody wants to talk seriously about the intricate complexities. My way or the highway.

Russia bad. Ukraine good. America leader of the free world. Go to sleep. Eat. Buy. Work. Rinse. Repeat.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#90
I've seen a bit of twitter chatter from international relations people about this article. Most of them are fairly dismissive of Mearshiemer's position---I've seen the phrase "stuck in the 1815 world" of colonial powers used repeatedly.

One substantive issue that I have seen is that he discounts nationalism; it seems like Ukrainians are rather attached to their independence.

One that I haven't seen much about in the nuclear non-proliferation issue: if the existence of a country without nukes is predicated on the whims of one with them, every country is strongly incentivized to develop them.

As for me, a little bit of my heart belongs to his book, Liddell Hart and the Weight of History.

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