Live data from Hacker News

Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

bbc.com

81–90 of 104 posts

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#81
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two things spring to mind: The first is that how we think is deeply intertwined with language. There's tons of evidence of this, not the least of which is Helen Keller's description of her world before she learned language. We'll probably never know what language existed 50,000+ years ago, how sophisticated or simple it was and how it affected how our ancestors thought. The second is the evidence we have from the anc…

> The second is the evidence we have from the ancient world, which was a mere 2,000 years ago. We have written records going back another 3,000-4,000 years before that. I find this period fascinating for many reasons but a big one is how alien we would find the ethics and how societies worked Can you elaborate some more on these differences? I’d love to learn more.

Look into Roman and Greek history. Slavery, the treatment of slaves, the attitudes towards minors (slaves and otherwise) for sexual purposes and so on. It's actually pretty abhorrent.

Another example: the origin of the word "decimate". "Decimation" was a Roman military punishment to military units in provinces that rebel against Rome. I don't believe it was widespread but it was common enough to spawn the modern word. "Deci-" here is Latin meaning "10". The punishment was this: soldiers (typically) were put in groups of 10. Each group was responsible for picking which of those 10 would die and be responsible for killing that person. The general way Rome quashed rebellion in general was brutal.

The amazing thing we actually have first hand accounts on Rome's military conquests in the forms of the writings of Julius Caesar (eg with the conquest of Gaul, which was essentially genocide). Now first hand accounts aren't necessarily accurate (eg Herodotus tended to embellish) but there are other accounts that lend a lot of credence to Caesar's accounts.

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a theory that Neanderthals didn’t have very strong language skills. So just like you can communicate with the dog reasonably well, maybe we could have sort of communicated with Neanderthals. But nothing resembling the rich conversation that Homo sapiens is capable of. Bearing that theory in mind, the humans would have just been much more able to out-compete, deceive, and defeat Neanderthals little by little o…

The cave paintings they left behind suggest otherwise.

Why does a painting imply complex language?

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a core argument in Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari.

Ok, he's most likely wrong. Interbreeding is pretty much proven. Do you know why he thought they didn't have strong language skills and how he linked that to deception and such or was he guessing? Because we have genetic tests nowadays, and it looks like they all bred in from the high percentages people have.

Interbreeding did happen but it’s probably not true that Neanderthals got wholesale assimilated into Homo sapiens. More that there was some low level of interbreeding.

I recommend reading the book, and also I would not recommend dismissing a respected book in one sentence, but I will say that the argument is largely anthropological. that the millions of years of human existence without development into more advanced civilizations can best be explained by language and oral history. More specifically, the ability to think in abstract and communicate it to others.

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#84
post #5

I would love to know what early Sapiens thought about the Neanderthals. Did they see them as that other tribe that is very strong, but acts a bit foolishly sometimes? As we have been the only remaining member of the Homo species for thousands of years now, living side by side with creatures that are only quite like us is an experience that has been lost in the collective human memory. I think it is pretty likely that…

I've always thought that the existence of the uncanny valley is interesting. For some reason, it was advantageous for us as a species to be creeped out and skeptical of things that looked very nearly human, but not human.

I'm sure that informed how early humans felt about neanderthals.

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#85
post #5

I would love to know what early Sapiens thought about the Neanderthals. Did they see them as that other tribe that is very strong, but acts a bit foolishly sometimes? As we have been the only remaining member of the Homo species for thousands of years now, living side by side with creatures that are only quite like us is an experience that has been lost in the collective human memory. I think it is pretty likely that…

Maybe you should use another word instead of intelligence. You don't need much intelligence to survive and thrive as a pack hunter. Wolves, lions, and other animals manage to do that, and they are not as intelligent as humans. Intelligence is something you need in a complex society rather than in the nature.

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cave paintings they left behind suggest otherwise.

Why does a painting imply complex language?

Cave paintings are in many cases real artistic expressions of animal scenes. Some use the contours of the caves to almost deliver an animation effect. It seems unlikely that an entity capable of depicting a nuanced abstract scene would be unable to verbally express similar concepts.

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there's around 10 billion people on the planet, you can always find some unusual person to make a point. In this case, though, she might agree with me, I'd say -- in that she spends part of her time reading and constructing things, from the article you linked: "reading and construction". Modern tech? I think there's lots of cool not-modern tech, ancient tech. Edit: She's an amazingly cool person! Thanks for linki…

My point is, our intelligence requires some activation. It is context-specific in the sense, that pure brain cannot develop it alone, in isolation or in a low tech culture. Configuration of our brain takes time and education, so modern human in prehistoric context may not reach the same IQ as if this person would have studied in one of the best schools on this planet. Agafia is modern human being, but she never had a…

Do you have evidence for statisticly significant increases in IQ that persist into adulthood as a result of education?

Success in education is correlated with high IQ. Much the same way high IQ is correlated with many forms of success.

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, he's most likely wrong. Interbreeding is pretty much proven. Do you know why he thought they didn't have strong language skills and how he linked that to deception and such or was he guessing? Because we have genetic tests nowadays, and it looks like they all bred in from the high percentages people have.

Interbreeding did happen but it’s probably not true that Neanderthals got wholesale assimilated into Homo sapiens. More that there was some low level of interbreeding. I recommend reading the book, and also I would not recommend dismissing a respected book in one sentence, but I will say that the argument is largely anthropological. that the millions of years of human existence without development into more advanced…

> Interbreeding did happen but it’s probably not true that Neanderthals got wholesale assimilated into Homo sapiens. More that there was some low level of interbreeding.

Why is it probably not true? It's the simplest reasoning. Why did they have to be deceived through language or annihilated, but slightly fornicated?

> I recommend reading the book, and also I would not recommend dismissing a respected book in one sentence

Seems reading the book wouldn't help me if you read it and can't argue the points on it's behalf.

I'll ask this again:

Do you know why he thought they didn't have strong language skills and how he linked that to annihilation via deception and such or was he guessing?

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#89
post #79
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much do you have ? If very high I wonder how it can happen, since I'd guess ancient admixtures should dilute a lot over time.

It's about 0% for sub-Sahara Africans, and in the 1% to 4% range for the rest. [1] This may not mean exactly what you think it means though. Your non-Neanderthal genes are also almost identical to the Neanderthal ones, otherwise interbreeding would have been impossible. It's just that genes come with slight variances that can be used to trace ancestry. E.g. you may also have heard that humans and chimpansee DNA is 98…

Some of the very similar Neanderthal variants of genes are manifest as important phenotypic differences though. Traits ranging from hair straightness, sneezing after dark chocolate, to severe COVID risk. Some alleles are now suddenly quite deleterious due to modern lifestyles, like the CHRN3 gene variant, but wasn't before widespread smoking.

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is, our intelligence requires some activation. It is context-specific in the sense, that pure brain cannot develop it alone, in isolation or in a low tech culture. Configuration of our brain takes time and education, so modern human in prehistoric context may not reach the same IQ as if this person would have studied in one of the best schools on this planet. Agafia is modern human being, but she never had a…

Do you have evidence for statisticly significant increases in IQ that persist into adulthood as a result of education? Success in education is correlated with high IQ. Much the same way high IQ is correlated with many forms of success.

Education does actually raise IQ.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29911926/

…Whatever that means. It's meaningless to say fluid intelligence can't be improved with education, that's a tautology.

Post reply on HN