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The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

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Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#81

Post by boznz »

smackeyacky wrote: post #26
adrianN wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A project like this would be interesting for a computer that controls some other long lived thing, like an industrial control computer. There is an awful number of old beige boxes running Windows 95 controlling some very expensive machinery. The lack of software updates is not a problem (until somebody tries to introduce IIoT...), but finding replacement parts can become quite difficult.

There is a small business near me that has a wool testing machine that absolutely relies on custom DOS 3.3 based software and an old school serial card. They have had to become very astute at picking up old parts to keep their old rigs running as the guy who wrote the control software passed on, and they don't want to invest money in rewriting it. You would think commodity hardware would run this setup but all attemp…

If it transfers data through serial it is generally pretty easy to capture the traffic and reverse engineer, two of my jobs have been projects exactly like this. Only on one occasion have I had to replace the control electronics in the machine where the 8755 ROM/IO chip had failed and the program data was lost

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#82

Post by boznz »

drewzero1 wrote: post #37
dbtc wrote: post #3

I think that the computers built to last 50 years are not really computers, but other things which contain or use a computer. Word processor, car, calculator, camera, space telescope...

I can't speak to the others, but I have very little faith in modern car computers lasting that long. They have become so complex, gaining additional sensors and controls for improved safety and efficiency (great!) and requiring special programming tools at the dealership to update software or install some replacement parts (not so great!). If the company goes under or can no longer support an aging car computer syste…

And a lot of new cars from this century are specifically designed to not be reverse engineered in some cases to the extent of having encrypted CAN messages or having to pair a failed module with the ECU cryptographically to discourage 3rd party replacements.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#83

Post by fancyfredbot »

There's no component of a fifty year old computer I'd want to use today. Maybe when we've reached the limits of Moore's law, perfected display technology, wireless networking, and hit the limits to communication bus performance designing computers to last fifty years will be more appealing. Doing that today would just mean more waste when all the components become obsolete and it's cheaper to replace than upgrade.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#84

Post by 7thaccount »

firebones wrote: post #16

My HP-11C is going on 36 years old, flawless, and is reportedly Turing complete [1]. Echoing the @dbtc comment that there are likely many special purpose computers that are closing in on this. [1] https://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/archv020.c... (If this is inaccurate about the 11c, and I'd love to hear why, then in a few years I'll see how my MacSE is doing. Just doing a casual assessment due to...lat…

My HP-15c feels pretty great. I just bought one of the swissmicros calculators (the DM42) and it has something like an e-ink display with Corning gorilla glass and uses RPN of course. You can get an HP-11c clone too. They aren't cheap garbage either, but feel very solid and have the HP bugs fixed.

These aren't the kind of computer the author is talking about though. They're more concerned about writing and sharing information than performing mathematical calculations.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#85

Post by 7thaccount »

I think some on here (that are just saying my Amiga or TRS-80 can already do that) may be missing the greater point even though they're not necessarily wrong.

I don't think the author is just talking about the computer, but kick-starting an entirely new movement from like-minded folks.

1.) This would of course need to include a pretty simple computer that has parts which could be replaced for decades. I'm thinking about something as potentially simple as a C64, but without all of the video chip stuff. Maybe closer to Ben Eater's computer, but a step up.

2.) This will need the right amount of peripherals. At minimum I think you'd need to be able to interact with an SD card, keyboard, e-ink display, battery, and the internet. I'm sure you may need something else as well. SD card isn't a requirement though. Maybe something else that is simpler, but still functional could work?

3.) This will need the right amount of software. Obviously Linux is out as an OS unless it is massively stripped down. If the hardware is as restrictive as a C64 or worse, then you'd have to do something very simple that is hardly an OS. I think a Forth layer over the hardware would be perfect. It would have some basic functionality as well as some applications like a very simple text editor, BBS, some kind of way to do text only web pages (not a web guy, so no clue if this would work), and maybe perform simple calculations. The original iOS from the Rebol guy (Carl Sassenrath, not Apple) had this interesting concept of sharing code over the internet. The core would be incredibly simple, but people could always add on whatever they wanted.

I'll add that I often think about getting to use a computer like this for everything not work related. There are some interesting ideas out there showing what computers could have been.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#86

Post by cpsns »

zepto wrote: post #15
cpsns wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a TRS-80 from 1984 and it still works fine, that's pushing 40 years and I have zero doubt I'll still be able to use it in another ~10.

What can it do?

Pretty much anything I program it to do, with obvious exceptions. I've replaced both floppy drives with floppy emulators, installed a FreHD "hard drive", and use an esp8266 based wireless modem* for access to the outside world.

Is the machine practical? In a modern context probably not, but I can read the news, get the weather, type up documents, manage household stuff, chat, etc, plus I just enjoy programming it.

It's a refreshing break from the modern computers I use 8 hours a day during my job. Programming on my Macbook feels like work, even after hours, programming on the 4P feels more like hobby programming.

*Some would say this is cheating, but I'm not of that mindset.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#87

Post by eternityforest »

The problem I see is that... I like having a phone and a laptop. Since we will never be able to fully participate in the modern world without them, unless society changes majorly, I would rather use the device I already have.

An ideal forever computer would just be a very reliable modern laptop with a replaceable battery and a software suite that people somehow agree to maintain for the next few decades.

It's possible now that we are at the good enough stage. Basic everyday tasks are no longer a challenge for CPUs, so in theory current laptops should be good till they break.

If I were to actually want to build something myself, it would be a pi4 based cyberdeck powered by lithium titanate batteries.

The author is a software guy, which is good, because most of the cool stuff he proposes can be done in software.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#88

Post by eternityforest »

dusted wrote: post #31
smackeyacky wrote: post #22

The major problem I see with this is that while the computer itself might still boot, the world around it will have changed so radically it will effectively be useless. You can see this with machines much younger than 50 years, they can't support the encryption required by most modern websites, interfaces age out of regular use: used a 24 pin parallel port lately? How about a modem? Even software with long support fo…

I got to say you're spot on. Keeping things working is no challenge looks at his commodores . Keeping them relevant is more of a challenge, this is one reason I hate to see people forcing redirects to HTTPS, it's just great and dandy that modern browsers suggest this to users (as long as they don't force), but for vast vast amounts of information, in the free world, you shouldn't force people into always-encrypted. T…

This is a good argument against YAGNI. If we thought 10 years ahead with our designs, the result might not be clean or beautiful, or even optimal, but it might well be better than constantly changing every piece of code we have.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#89

Post by BenjiWiebe »

salamandersauce wrote: post #76
smackeyacky wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a small business near me that has a wool testing machine that absolutely relies on custom DOS 3.3 based software and an old school serial card. They have had to become very astute at picking up old parts to keep their old rigs running as the guy who wrote the control software passed on, and they don't want to invest money in rewriting it. You would think commodity hardware would run this setup but all attemp…

Amazon still shows as DDR2 being available from brands such as Tecmiyo and Kuesuny. With prime shipping even. You can even get DDR1 still. Now whether it's new memory or just recycled memory that's been repackaged I have no idea.

It sure looks like new. I recently ordered some DDR2 for a printer's mainboard.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#90

Post by BenjiWiebe »

boznz wrote: post #82
drewzero1 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak to the others, but I have very little faith in modern car computers lasting that long. They have become so complex, gaining additional sensors and controls for improved safety and efficiency (great!) and requiring special programming tools at the dealership to update software or install some replacement parts (not so great!). If the company goes under or can no longer support an aging car computer syste…

And a lot of new cars from this century are specifically designed to not be reverse engineered in some cases to the extent of having encrypted CAN messages or having to pair a failed module with the ECU cryptographically to discourage 3rd party replacements.

But then there's stuff such as rusEFI, which is an open source replacement for the ECU. It's definitely a possibility to completely replace the very part that is enforcing the encryption.
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