Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Building a Fashion Company on the Internet? Stop. Just stop.

melanie.io

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 95 posts

Re: Building a Fashion Company on the Internet? Stop. Just stop.

#81

Post by rokhayakebe »

switch wrote: post #43
rokhayakebe wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may want to give her more credit. She did a fashion startup for a few years. About the 3-8% affiliate fees, that's not a viable business model. You would have to deliver north of 15M dollars to get 1M dollars. Assuming the average ticket is $150, you need 100,000 conversion. The average internet conversion rate is 3%. So you need 3M uniques. That is not very easy to get. Even if you are buying it.

Give her more credit for what? She did a fashion startup for a few years and she never figured out that nearly every luxury company gives 10% to 15% commissions? If she really thinks it's 3 to 8% then she's blissfuly ignorant. She doesn't get the fundamental concept of capturing the starting point. If a site becomes the destination for fashion i.e. where people go to search for the next thing they buy. Then that site…

I think you killed your reply. Still read it. You may have a point. In the case of Google you can see this happening, and Jason Calacanis pointed earlier this week that "Google is now buying content companies and just giving you the answer". So you are right. However I think when you are dealing with physical products the dynamics are truly different.

Re: Building a Fashion Company on the Internet? Stop. Just stop.

#82

Post by notahacker »

Retric wrote: post #58
notahacker wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether it's a friend or an impersonal algorithm making the recommendation, you're still watching the same trailer before deciding to purchase a film. On the other hand, no amount of precise algorithmic matching of tastes and sizes can substitute for feeling the softness of the fabric and being reassured by your reflection that your bum doesn't look big in it before you buy. The costs involved are quite different too…

I suspect the simple solution to that is to have low cost models in a range of sizes try on each item. Let's say it costs 100$ a per size * 10 sizes = 100$ per item in your catalog * 10,000 items in the catalog = 10 million. Which is within the range of a well funded start-up. So it adds 1k/item and some lead time it's also a huge barrier to entry and probably well worth it. PS: Don't forget Zappos sells shoes online…

If I'm in the target market for high fashion, I'd probably list "clothes shopping" as one of my hobbies. I don't; I buy cheap clothes which retailers make minimal profit on. If I was in the market for designer clothes then my tastes wouldn't be price elastic, so saving retailers' costs by substituting cheaply made model videos for the user experience of actually seeing and touching the clothes in a stylish location isn't much of a purchase incentive. By contrast, unless the local Blockbuster outfit offer exceptional advice, actually going and physically picking up DVDs is a mere inconvenience and I'd much rather pay less to skip it altogether.

I'm not arguing it's impossible to sell fashion items online; it evidently is. It's probably also possible to sell wallpaper over the telephone. That doesn't mean the economies of selling over the internet necessarily lend themselves well to disrupting a sector that enjoys massive profit margins through making far more effective emotional inducements to purchase than a photograph and a like button.

Re: Building a Fashion Company on the Internet? Stop. Just stop.

#83

Post by Retric »

notahacker wrote: post #82
Retric wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect the simple solution to that is to have low cost models in a range of sizes try on each item. Let's say it costs 100$ a per size * 10 sizes = 100$ per item in your catalog * 10,000 items in the catalog = 10 million. Which is within the range of a well funded start-up. So it adds 1k/item and some lead time it's also a huge barrier to entry and probably well worth it. PS: Don't forget Zappos sells shoes online…

If I'm in the target market for high fashion, I'd probably list "clothes shopping" as one of my hobbies. I don't; I buy cheap clothes which retailers make minimal profit on. If I was in the market for designer clothes then my tastes wouldn't be price elastic, so saving retailers' costs by substituting cheaply made model videos for the user experience of actually seeing and touching the clothes in a stylish location i…

I would argue that there is a huge market for people living in Arizona that can't get to any of those high end stores without flying there that still buy 'high end' fashion. The market is fit 34 year old doctors making 300k that don't live near such stores it's really poorly catered to. When a catalog sell 5,000$ dresses based on pictures that look nothing like the customer that's just ripe for disruption over the web.

You could also do the same thing for the mass market, but I don't think the average American really wants to see someone that actually looks like them trying on the clothes. Granted, there are main stream markets other than fat that this could work just fine, baby clothes, teens, big and tall etc.

Re: Building a Fashion Company on the Internet? Stop. Just stop.

#84

Post by jfarmer »

div wrote: post #72
jfarmer wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Robots don't merchandise, that's the problem. For many people decisions about what to wear is very intimate, but algorithms are bloodless. The who, where, and how matter much more in fashion. Algorithms miss that.

I think a strong algorithm may surprise you. I remember reading about the Netflix contest and how one of the algorithms categorizes movies into it's own statistically relevant categories*. Once a comparative algorithm is used and the dataset gets large enough, I have no doubt the recommendations will start to get real good real fast. http://devlicio.us/blogs/billy_mccafferty/archive/2007/01/02...

What I'm trying to say is this: it's not about a "match" between the product and the potential consumer.

The who, what, and how of the recommendation matter almost as much as the product itself. Just the fact that I know this recommendation came from a human counts for something, especially if it's a human I trust or respect when it comes to fashion (not necessarily a friend).

e.g., a celebrity wearing a shirt and having it sell out the next day.

Movies are different because their consumption isn't inherently conspicuous. I do it alone and talk about it with friends if I choose, but everyone sees the clothes I wear no matter what.

For example, I can choose to hide the fact that I love Katy Perry, but I can't hide the fact that LVMH made my handbag.

How you dress is a performance, and so the decision to wear something is filtered more rigorously through a social dimension than watching a movie or listening to a song is.

Re: Building a Fashion Company on the Internet? Stop. Just stop.

#85

Post by jfarmer »

melanie_io wrote: post #80
switch wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Additionally, let me clarify a few things. Starting Point: Where people start their search (to buy something or find something). Decision Engine: Where people make a decision. Buying Point: Where people actually buy. What are all the reviews at Amazon for? Amazon is both a decision engine and a buying engine. They are trying to wean off starting engines like Google and that is why they first tried A9 and now are tryi…

You are missing a very key point here: consumers do not decide what they wear, the fashion / PR machine decides that for them. Think about this: while a girl may discover a cool, new designer on Pintrest and buy a dress from that designer, trust me, she will still scratch out some girl's eyeballs to get the new Louis Vuttion bag. And why? Branding. And hundreds of millions of dollars in marketing to create an image,…

I've found that almost nobody in Silicon Valley gets this, especially engineers (speaking as one). They treat the "product problem" as a technology problem (more data, better recommendations), but it's really a psychology problem (how do you make people fall in love?).

Mapping the social web onto the latter problem is actually more straightforward, IMO, than trying to, say, mine my Facebook account to make more "personalized" apparel recommendations.

Re: Building a Fashion Company on the Internet? Stop. Just stop.

#86

Post by chime »

pointyhat wrote: post #79
astrofinch wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working on a project like that sounds like a lot of fun. I guess there must not be very much money in it though because every company requires custom software, eh?

Having done a LOT of work in that space (historically), I can assure you it's all SAP, Oracle, PeopleSoft, AS400 and epic quantities of turds. The largest turd being EDI and all sorts of nastyness. It's not fun. It's actually painful. It takes a special kind of person to do it: Someone who doesn't care about what they do, just the money.

> It's not fun. It's actually painful. It takes a special kind of person to do it: Someone who doesn't care about what they do, just the money.

In large companies, absolutely. But for rapidly growing companies, this is one of the most challenging jobs out there and you really start to care about it on a personal level. I can make one change on the barcode scanners that saves the six warehouse guys over two hours a day. It actually improves their quality of work life by reducing potential for conflicts and blame. You won't get mentions on TechCrunch but you will help out individuals on a personal basis and the company on an efficiency basis.

Unfortunately the money is way better everywhere else for someone with skills to do this right.

Re: Building a Fashion Company on the Internet? Stop. Just stop.

#87

Post by melanie_io »

Retric wrote: post #83
notahacker wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I'm in the target market for high fashion, I'd probably list "clothes shopping" as one of my hobbies. I don't; I buy cheap clothes which retailers make minimal profit on. If I was in the market for designer clothes then my tastes wouldn't be price elastic, so saving retailers' costs by substituting cheaply made model videos for the user experience of actually seeing and touching the clothes in a stylish location i…

I would argue that there is a huge market for people living in Arizona that can't get to any of those high end stores without flying there that still buy 'high end' fashion. The market is fit 34 year old doctors making 300k that don't live near such stores it's really poorly catered to. When a catalog sell 5,000$ dresses based on pictures that look nothing like the customer that's just ripe for disruption over the we…

Yep - there is a huge market for this, one that Net-A-Porter and Mr. Porter dominate (~$200 million in revenue). They take care of the sizing issues with flexible returns and personal stylists. Since 80% of their revenue comes from only 2% of their client base, they can afford to hire personal stylists for higher-volume clientele. Check it out.

Re: Building a Fashion Company on the Internet? Stop. Just stop.

#88

Post by melanie_io »

switch wrote: post #43
rokhayakebe wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may want to give her more credit. She did a fashion startup for a few years. About the 3-8% affiliate fees, that's not a viable business model. You would have to deliver north of 15M dollars to get 1M dollars. Assuming the average ticket is $150, you need 100,000 conversion. The average internet conversion rate is 3%. So you need 3M uniques. That is not very easy to get. Even if you are buying it.

Give her more credit for what? She did a fashion startup for a few years and she never figured out that nearly every luxury company gives 10% to 15% commissions? If she really thinks it's 3 to 8% then she's blissfuly ignorant. She doesn't get the fundamental concept of capturing the starting point. If a site becomes the destination for fashion i.e. where people go to search for the next thing they buy. Then that site…

Back in the real world, it is actually happening the other way around. Retailers and brands (which have all the power and money) are becoming the content creators and poaching talent from the publishing industry. Quote below from a Business of Fashion article earlier this year.

"What began as a trickle is now starting to look more like a mass exodus. Jeremy Langmead, formerly of Esquire, is now at Mr. Porter. Andrea Linett, formerly of Lucky magazine, is now at eBay. Dennis Freedman, formerly of W, is now at Barneys. Fiona McIntosh, formerly of Grazia, is now at My Wardrobe. And the list goes on. It seems that there are almost weekly reports announcing that yet another magazine veteran has fled a traditional publishing company to take up a position at a brand or retailer. Recently, it was British Vogue that was in the headlines, when creative director Robin Derrick and fashion director Kate Phelan both announced within days of each other that they were leaving the magazine. Phelan is set to become creative director of Topshop, while Derrick’s plans have yet to be revealed.

By now, it’s a well-known fact that times are tough for traditional, ad-supported editorial outlets. For example, from 2007 through 2009, Condé Nast — publisher of Vogue, Vanity Fair and others — saw about $500 million in revenue disappear, a decline from which it has yet to recover. In fact, Condé Nast CEO Chuck Townshend recently admitted to the Wall Street Journal, “My eyes are wide open. I don’t consider [the traditional ad-revenue model] to be a perennially sustainable stream of revenue.”

Re: Building a Fashion Company on the Internet? Stop. Just stop.

#89

Post by pointyhat »

chime wrote: post #86
pointyhat wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having done a LOT of work in that space (historically), I can assure you it's all SAP, Oracle, PeopleSoft, AS400 and epic quantities of turds. The largest turd being EDI and all sorts of nastyness. It's not fun. It's actually painful. It takes a special kind of person to do it: Someone who doesn't care about what they do, just the money.

> It's not fun. It's actually painful. It takes a special kind of person to do it: Someone who doesn't care about what they do, just the money. In large companies, absolutely. But for rapidly growing companies, this is one of the most challenging jobs out there and you really start to care about it on a personal level. I can make one change on the barcode scanners that saves the six warehouse guys over two hours a da…

Fair point - I'll give you that. Ironically I did a spot with Intermec barcode scanners and printers for asset management on top of Oracle so I understand where you are coming with.

I actually quit because I was the only one who did care. Everyone else was just after vendor backhanders.

Re: Building a Fashion Company on the Internet? Stop. Just stop.

#90

Post by redthrowaway »

jfarmer wrote: post #64
prof_hobart wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing it's because you're likely not their target audience. A lot of people are more than happy to let whoever asks have permission to spam their Facebook feed with free advertising.

We don't spam anyone's Facebook feed, for the record. We will post something if and only if you click "post to Facebook."

Whether you do or not is really immaterial. You ask for permission to, which people will always assume the worst about.
Post reply on HN