This is an excellent article! However, I find the definition of phonemes very unsatisfying: > Phonemes are not exactly the same thing as sounds, and they’re not exactly the same thing as letters. They are kind of like connecting categories that map letters to sounds … Phonemes are a way of saying, If you see a letter “r” is this situation, use Sound A for it. If you see “r” in this other situation, use a different So…
(Not saying you are wrong, I'm trying to clear up my misconceptions) I didn't realize that phonemes were perceptually distinct units of sound, in the same way graphemes are visually distinct units. (yes there is the whole "some speakers recognize different sounds in their brain as the same" wrinkle). What would the term be for units of sound which are perceptually distinct regardless of listener's perspective? E.g. […
The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)
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Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
> American English uses the r flap for the letters t and d between vowels I think it's more constrained than this; I don't have it in "baton", for example. I'm no phonologist, but I suspect it has to be followed by a liquid (L or R sound). I have it in e.g. "butter" or "little".
Repeating "butter" is actually a great way to teach people how to make the rolled R [r].
By "rolled r", do you mean the trill? The trill and flap are different sounds in some languages (for example, Spanish "perro" (dog) has the trill whereas "pero" (but) has the flap). The /t/ in Am.E. "butter" is the flap.
Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)
#83When the author is sampling R sounds of the world, two prominent omissions come to mind: - American English uses the r flap for the letters t and d between vowels. I think I may have also heard Australians do this? - I've heard Puerto Ricans when speaking Spanish do something close to what is described as a "Brazilian R". A /x/ type of sound where /r/ would be in other accents. Backed up here: https://en.m.wikipedia.…
> American English uses the r flap for the letters t and d between vowels I think it's more constrained than this; I don't have it in "baton", for example. I'm no phonologist, but I suspect it has to be followed by a liquid (L or R sound). I have it in e.g. "butter" or "little".
Has to be between vowels and at the start of an unstressed syllable, I believe. Compare "attic" to "attack," for example.
Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)
#84My name is Rodrigo and I work remotely for an american company with only American teammates. When I say my name I pronounce the way Americans would pronounce it to simplify communication, but it always feels a little phony. Like I am making up a nickname that’s actually not mine to a new group. Not anything that bothers me, just a curiosity of global remote work and our R.
If the problem was only with R's.. In my case (João) i just got used to have my name pronounced as "joao" :)
Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)
#85When the author is sampling R sounds of the world, two prominent omissions come to mind: - American English uses the r flap for the letters t and d between vowels. I think I may have also heard Australians do this? - I've heard Puerto Ricans when speaking Spanish do something close to what is described as a "Brazilian R". A /x/ type of sound where /r/ would be in other accents. Backed up here: https://en.m.wikipedia.…
Also, it's false that the alveolar approximant is the same as the retroflex (some Americans have the retroflex version; some don't). To be fair, they sound virtually identical (at least to me).
Furthermore, it's extremely false to claim that either of these sounds is exclusive or nearly so to American English; they are present in many languages, including but not limited to various dialects of European languages, and also including Mandarin, which has several times more native speakers than Am.E. does.
Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
> American English uses the r flap for the letters t and d between vowels I think it's more constrained than this; I don't have it in "baton", for example. I'm no phonologist, but I suspect it has to be followed by a liquid (L or R sound). I have it in e.g. "butter" or "little".
Has to be between vowels and at the start of an unstressed syllable, I believe. Compare "attic" to "attack," for example.
Great example -- I guess I stand corrected and it doesn't have to do with liquids at all!
Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)
#87Scottish people can pronounce the same sound! When you say "Loch Ness" with a very thick Scottish accent, the "ch" in loch is quite close to it. Also the sound is quite common in other languages: "roi" in French, "reisen" in German, ... Even some Spanish dialects like Galego have the same r. Only Castilian/normal Spanish doesn't have it. OTOH, just ask a Brazilian to pronounce simply "the". The "th" phoneme is quite…
Hot-Dog: Rotchi-Dogee Hardcore: Rardjee-Core Armlock: Army-locky
Hobby: Rhobby
Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
I can't imagine any two English accents as far apart from each other as are the Portuguese accents of "standard Globo TV presenter in Brazil" and that of the Azores. I grew up on and off in Brazil (Rio de Janeiro and Brasília) and later spent 20+ years in the SF Bay Area. Once in a while I'd run into old-school Azoreans who'd lived in the Portuguese towns (Santa Clara, Newark, San Leandro, Half Moon Bay, Pescadero, C…
Is this a reasonable example of the Azores Portuguese?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeVHjELjR9s Sounds like a Russian speaking Portuguese to me (American fluent in Brazilian Portuguese), pretty amusing but I can follow everything. I often think that when I hear PT-PT as well - interestingly someone in the comments says this sounds less Russian to them. I have very little exposure to non-Brazilian accents so no id…
The syllable-eating, "Slavic-ish" sound of PT-PT is why I chose to learn it over Brazilian. I love it.
I have trouble with Brazilian accents, on the other hand, because I mainly listen to PT-PT.
Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)
#89When the author is sampling R sounds of the world, two prominent omissions come to mind: - American English uses the r flap for the letters t and d between vowels. I think I may have also heard Australians do this? - I've heard Puerto Ricans when speaking Spanish do something close to what is described as a "Brazilian R". A /x/ type of sound where /r/ would be in other accents. Backed up here: https://en.m.wikipedia.…
> American English uses the r flap for the letters t and d between vowels I think it's more constrained than this; I don't have it in "baton", for example. I'm no phonologist, but I suspect it has to be followed by a liquid (L or R sound). I have it in e.g. "butter" or "little".
Like another comment I can think of examples without a liquid following. "Latin" is one. (I have a distant memory of being called strange for saying that as [t])
I think I sometimes only do it if I'm talking fast. Pronouncing it as [t] isn't often outside the acceptable range, or something that makes you sound too foreign.
Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes in Portugal, I tend to see a lot of similarities with German by the spoken Portuguese.. Like "Ei" sounding like "Ai" and "P" sounding like "B" in the beginning of sentences.
I was really surprised at how close the alphabet letters are pronounced in German and Portuguese.
me too. I grew-up between Germany and Brazil and now I live mainly in Portugal. In the beginning I was amused by that too. Now I can really speak PT-PT. Even "Ja" can be used to say yes.