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Swedes were fooled by one of the biggest scientific bluffs of our time (2020)

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Re: Swedes were fooled by one of the biggest scientific bluffs of our time (2020)

#81

The interesting question here perhaps isn’t so much whether knowing if you are a particular color or 4-letter Myers-Briggs combination helps you or whether there is a solid foundation to the categorization at all. What’s interesting here is rather: what happens when you think of everyone as a pigeonholed category. Intuitively it seems it should be mostly negative especially if the categories don’t even offer any beha…

Pigeonholing seems to me that it only leads to plain old confirmation bias instead of actually paying attention to the other's behaviour.

Re: Swedes were fooled by one of the biggest scientific bluffs of our time (2020)

#82
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was the best selling pocket book in Sweden in 2017 and 2018. 800 000 copies have been sold in Swedish. It was pretty difficult to miss.

That’s under 8% of the population buying the book or receiving it as a gift and some percentage of them reading it.

You say "under 8% of the population" having a copy of the book as if that doesn't make it almost as popular as the Bible.

Re: Swedes were fooled by one of the biggest scientific bluffs of our time (2020)

#83
post #37
post #17

I've lost the thought around this part: > For example, consider a person who says, “now I understand why I have such negative thoughts, can’t get to sleep, and have difficulty getting going…I’ve got depression.” This person might believe that the explanation of her symptoms is depression, but in fact, the diagnosis of depression is just a categorisation of exactly these symptoms. The diagnosis of depression usually r…

We don’t understand the biological processes behind depression, and there is no lab test used to diagnose depression. It is just as the passage says, a categorization of symptoms. That doesn’t mean there aren’t biological processes at work, but we don’t understand them enough to diagnose depression at that level. We aren’t even really sure why most depression treatments work. Contrast that to diabetes. You don’t get…

> We aren’t even really sure why most depression treatments work.

SSRIs and SNRIs and many others all seem to have a theory behind them, based on biology.

Re: Swedes were fooled by one of the biggest scientific bluffs of our time (2020)

#84
post #7

I went through the Insights Discovery course [0], which sounds a lot like what tfa is discrediting. At work we still talk about the colors of people years after the course. After reading tfa I still feel that there is value in this system, but mostly wrt awareness. The course recognizes a spectrum and everyone has aspects of all colors. Many people at my employer are primarily green or blue. During the courses it cam…

> I still feel that there is value in this system, but mostly wrt awareness. And that's fine - but you might as well use astrology.

The difference being that these colors are based on character traits and questions being answered, not on the position of celestial bodies. And I'm saying they proved useful to me, I hope they proved useful to those I applied my insights to as well, I think so.

Tfa also does not state the colors are complete bs, it mostly objects to the Thomas Erikson not being educated properly. It does not state any damage being done using his (over?) simplification, I mean I never heard a colleague say: "I'm sorry I trampled all over you in the meeting, I'm just red." Which seems to be what the author is warning for.

I'm just wondering how the colors are scientifically wrong exactly, what hypotheses do they generated that have been proven to be wrong and damaging?

Re: Swedes were fooled by one of the biggest scientific bluffs of our time (2020)

#85

I struggle often with this somewhat arbitrary desire for everything to be data-driven and backed by science. People hope, pray, follow best practices, listen to advice on the internet and yet, every now and then we are reminded that only fools do these things. Really intelligent people only listen to science and do things backed by science and lots of data. How does anyone accomplish anything if every step they take…

If you "only listen to science", you don't understand science.

Science actually has a narrow focus. It only deals with things that are observable, reproducible, predictable and falsifiable. Since Gödel, science even proved itself as incomplete. The best doctors will always say that if something makes you feel better, by all means do it, even if it is not backed by science.

It is not the same as going against science. This can be bad, because science is really good at what it does, thanks in part to its narrow focus. For example, eat all chicken soup you want if it makes you feel better, but if you want your cancer to go away, it is not a good idea to ignore the treatments that science has come up with. The best doctors will tell you that too.

Re: Swedes were fooled by one of the biggest scientific bluffs of our time (2020)

#86
post #17

I've lost the thought around this part: > For example, consider a person who says, “now I understand why I have such negative thoughts, can’t get to sleep, and have difficulty getting going…I’ve got depression.” This person might believe that the explanation of her symptoms is depression, but in fact, the diagnosis of depression is just a categorisation of exactly these symptoms. The diagnosis of depression usually r…

This is just wrong. Depression is a descriptive condition, not a prescrtive one.

Many psychiatrists--the quack ones--will use the language of "chemical imbalance" as a sort of "appeal to authority" fallacy. It should be obvious that this is a fallacy because:

A) at no point have they actually measured the patient's brain chemistry (and it's not obvious what it would even mean to do this? an imbalance where? compared to what?)

B) the doctor diagnosed the depression doing exactly what TFA did: matched a set of symptoms to a list.

One of the harshest criticisms of the DSM-V -- the latest version of this descriptive manual--is that it grossly expands the symptoms that qualify as depression (to include things like bereavement, for example).

The "chemical imbalance" theory was based on the success of SSRIs to treat depression. These are chemicals that inhibit the reuptake of serotonin, which results in overproduction of that neurotransmitter. "Ah, so depression is a lack of serotonin"

Counterfactual evidence is conveniently ignored. For example, the fact that antipsychotics, which block the reception of serotonin (and so are basically the opposite of SSRIs), are also powerful antidepressants!

It's also a nonsense theory to anyone with an undergraduate knowledge of neuroscience. There is no "happiness" neurotransmitter. Serotonin is simply an inhibitory neurotransmitter, which reduces the odds of a neuron 'firing'. Which neuron? Part of what network? Wait, what? In the immortal words of Paul Dirac "it's not even wrong."

In fact, most of the most promising new therapies for depression have nothing to do with serotonin: psylocibin (many orders of magnitude more effective than SSRIs), ketamine and transcranial magnetic stimulation are examples.

Of course, the mind is a side effect of physiology: there must be some biological explanation to depression. But that doesn't mean that it's the same explanation for everyone, or that it has anything to do with a "chemical imbalance" of one neurotransmitter vs another.

Re: Swedes were fooled by one of the biggest scientific bluffs of our time (2020)

#87

The interesting question here perhaps isn’t so much whether knowing if you are a particular color or 4-letter Myers-Briggs combination helps you or whether there is a solid foundation to the categorization at all. What’s interesting here is rather: what happens when you think of everyone as a pigeonholed category. Intuitively it seems it should be mostly negative especially if the categories don’t even offer any beha…

> But something tells me that there could also be some positive effects from actually wondering about the behavior of others and how you treat them, even if it’s pigeonholing and preconceptions based on bogus research.

I doubt it, any benefit (if there are any) will be FAR outweighed by the negative effects.

It makes it way too easy to use the category as a excuse for bad behaviour.

It makes it way too easy for someone believing it to put themself in a category while they do not fit any category in turn causing a ton a psychological stress, especially for teenagers in the puberty which could even cause long term negative after effects.

It hinders a proper healthy society, because that requires people to work on themself instead of just excusing themself as being .

It hinders proper psychological care, self finding, self reflection/introspection.

It messes with peoples life if applies at work.

...

Re: Swedes were fooled by one of the biggest scientific bluffs of our time (2020)

#88

It spreads in France too I believe and it's the first time I heard it's a hoax.

While reading the article, I couldn't shake the impression that the article itself had been made up, but it even has a goodreads page with a 16000 ratings.

Re: Swedes were fooled by one of the biggest scientific bluffs of our time (2020)

#89
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was the best selling pocket book in Sweden in 2017 and 2018. 800 000 copies have been sold in Swedish. It was pretty difficult to miss.

That’s under 8% of the population buying the book or receiving it as a gift and some percentage of them reading it.

8% of a population doing any singular thing is rather significant.

For instance: in the 90's less than 10% (but more than 5%) of British people were going to university. But that has profound effects on the population.

Re: Swedes were fooled by one of the biggest scientific bluffs of our time (2020)

#90

I struggle often with this somewhat arbitrary desire for everything to be data-driven and backed by science. People hope, pray, follow best practices, listen to advice on the internet and yet, every now and then we are reminded that only fools do these things. Really intelligent people only listen to science and do things backed by science and lots of data. How does anyone accomplish anything if every step they take…

Good for you, but beside the point.

The point is that the author claims the model is scientific, but it isn't.

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