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Sorry, but you're already living in the “Squid Game”

welcometothejungle.com

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Re: Sorry, but you're already living in the “Squid Game”

#81
Art imitates life. Squid Game is very deep. The reason is that it doesn't allow for the initial knee-jerk reaction that the poor are virtious and are simply crushed beneath the wheel of the powerful and the rich.

The main character is a gambler that lives off of the back of his mother. This can be blamed both of his own shortcomings and that of society. At the end of the show it is proven yet again that he is a gambler in heart when he chooses to play the last game with the mastermind of the game instead of going out and helping the freezing homeless person. On top of that, he hoards the money and sits on it for a year instead of helping the victims' families. This can hardly be blamed on society or on the rich.

Dog eat dog world assumption really doesn't work in Squid Game. Here's why. Being a woman and old is disadvantegous. Yet the team chooses two women and old man for the tug of war competition. If this is not downright irrationality I don't know what is. Yet the little compassion that they muster during life and death situation ends up being their ticket towards survival. This imitates real life where even the morally worst will do something to save someone just to prove to themselves that they are not that far gone.

In the following game the main character again chooses the old man who most likely would've been left off to die. Yet again this small compassion brings him a victory as the old man simply gives him the marbles because they are friends and friends share everything.

So yeah squid game imitates life but that's not really pessimistic because it contains both the beautiful and horrible aspects of human nature.

Re: Sorry, but you're already living in the “Squid Game”

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with hints of communism Seriously? It portrays current South Korea, which is one of the most capitalist societies in Asia. Did we watch the same show? In fact, most of the circumstances that bring the players in the squid game are due to poverty and failed capitalism.

It showed greedy, flawed people who _chose_ to leave a possibly capitalistic system (they actually dont discuss the outside world too much) and participate in a totalitarian hell hole as they are enticed with cash. Not out of lack of options, but due to messed up promises by the dictator in charge and their own greedy nature, or bad choices (like gambling debt, crashing a overlevered portfolio which is hardly poverty…

Horse races and investment portfolios would be out of context in a communist state.

You didn't watch the same show.

Re: Sorry, but you're already living in the “Squid Game”

#83
post #64

> Meritocracy is a fallacious idea – a convenient lie told to those whose lack of wealth or social class leaves them at a distinct disadvantage. This is a bit oversimplified. Meritocracy is not an outright fallacious idea, but depending on the subject, there is a certain threshold of opportunity above which it becomes the dominant force, and for many that threshold is out of reach. For instance, learning to program i…

Meritocracy is a friend of disadvantaged people, really? Merit reward merits. It's advantage compounding on advantage, whether that's luck, gene, talent, or just good environments and good parents. You win, then you can then plow that back into winning more.

A meritocracy is inherently a society of elite. It is not egalitarian.

Re: Sorry, but you're already living in the “Squid Game”

#84
post #83
post #64

> Meritocracy is a fallacious idea – a convenient lie told to those whose lack of wealth or social class leaves them at a distinct disadvantage. This is a bit oversimplified. Meritocracy is not an outright fallacious idea, but depending on the subject, there is a certain threshold of opportunity above which it becomes the dominant force, and for many that threshold is out of reach. For instance, learning to program i…

Meritocracy is a friend of disadvantaged people, really? Merit reward merits. It's advantage compounding on advantage, whether that's luck, gene, talent, or just good environments and good parents. You win, then you can then plow that back into winning more. A meritocracy is inherently a society of elite. It is not egalitarian.

> whether that's luck, gene, talent, or just good environments and good parents. You win

You are conflating the very two things i am trying to distinguish here... luck, good environment, good parents are all opportunities.

Talent is something you earn with hard work, passion, effort, and yes is compounded and encouraged by merit, but can only do so given the opportunity. If society does not reward these things it falls apart, if a business does not reward these things, poorly qualified people end up making things, passionate people end up demotivated and stop improving, dispassionate or incompetent people produce rubbish without improving, nothing good comes out of this.

Many people suggest the merit is all that's needed, and that's not true, you need both. Honest insightful and successful people recognise how important opportunity was in their success, and when the world is viewed with this perspective you realise meritocracy is not enough - but being insufficient does not automatically make it bad.

[edit]

for clarity, I more delicately rephrased the part the parent quoted before they posted their reply, but I did say that:

> Meritocracy is a friend of disadvantaged people

Re: Sorry, but you're already living in the “Squid Game”

#85
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Y'all seem to think that we're in some kind of meritocracy, that predatory capitalism isn't centrally planned, that you earned your position in society and so everyone who's poor just isn't working hard or smart enough... Not everything is perfect, but we're not living in a dictatorship yet. Sure, some poor people don't have a chance and the closer you are to money, the easier it gets, but it's not like it's all on…

> Not everything is perfect, but we're not living in a dictatorship yet. There's 'not perfect', and then there's us... We've got sanctioned torture, an oligarch class, perpetual war, unaccountable surveillance, black sites, executive orders, secret courts, silencing, detention and torture of foreign journalists, and record inequality. And that's in our own country - we do much worse to South America, Africa, the Midd…

> There's 'not perfect', and then there's us... We've got sanctioned torture, an oligarch class, perpetual war, unaccountable surveillance, black sites, executive orders, secret courts, silencing, detention and torture of foreign journalists, and record inequality.

> And that's in our own country - we do much worse to South America, Africa, the Middle East. Have done for hundreds of years. We even threaten and surveil European groups and leaders without (immediate) consequence.

Well, I'm not going to defend these actions, but there are arguably worse actors. My point is, it's not like it's as bad as it could be (especially historically), so the "obvious" point of it being horrible really depends on the perspective. Which is not to say that the situation should not improve!

> So what? If it were social critique first people would be complaining that it's too political. I've overheard people discussing social inequality in the grocery store because of this show, and I fucking love it for that.

Which is cool! My point is, given the graphic violence and it's focus on that, it's quite easy to miss the deeper social point in it and/or argue that this is just trying to read some meaning into a snuff film. I agree with you that it's good, but it's not like the people writing it off don't have a point.

Re: Sorry, but you're already living in the “Squid Game”

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It showed greedy, flawed people who _chose_ to leave a possibly capitalistic system (they actually dont discuss the outside world too much) and participate in a totalitarian hell hole as they are enticed with cash. Not out of lack of options, but due to messed up promises by the dictator in charge and their own greedy nature, or bad choices (like gambling debt, crashing a overlevered portfolio which is hardly poverty…

Boy did you completely miss the meaning of it. They all live in a strongly capitalist society, which works in the same way as the squid game does, just less gory but still brutal. It is still a competitive race to the top where the losers are left behind. That's exactly capitalism and meritocracy for you, if you didn't get it yet. What the squid game organizers offer to them is, at least for once a fair-ish opportuni…

Might I suggest doing some introspection?

Perhaps I “completely missed” the meaning of it. I hardly saw much discussion about the flaws of Korean society (and thus dont presume anything about it with my own biases — I didnt get the visual it was a “hellhole”). What I saw was a horrible father/son in gambling debt (his choice to gamble), a pretentious trader who overlevered and lost peoples money (his choice to be greedy), a bunch of thieves, and a crazy old rich man (clearly a sadist). I didnt see abject poverty that arose due to capitalism. I am trying hard to see how the free market got these people to be like that. Feel free to explain if you would like.

Then I saw these people constantly choose to be inside a messed up totalitarian system so that they could get cash. They were societys degenerates who were driven by so much greed that they joined this quasi commie / authoritarian system to get even more cash.

Maybe you are saying that for degenerates, a normal free market is a “hell hole” and thus they need this game. Ok, fair enough. But that doesnt tell us much about capitalism.

Re: Sorry, but you're already living in the “Squid Game”

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And why do they participate? Because its their only chance to get away from being poor. That's exactly the point of capitalism - people do things they don't want to do every day so they don't have to be poor.

But what’s the alternative to freely trading your labor for goods and services? Taking them through government decree?

You can't freely trade your labor. The market is rigged.

If you give people rights, capital will emigrate to other countries. Just look at outsourcing.

See, it is human nature that is flawed. There are always people on top and people below.

Re: Sorry, but you're already living in the “Squid Game”

#88
post #64

> Meritocracy is a fallacious idea – a convenient lie told to those whose lack of wealth or social class leaves them at a distinct disadvantage. This is a bit oversimplified. Meritocracy is not an outright fallacious idea, but depending on the subject, there is a certain threshold of opportunity above which it becomes the dominant force, and for many that threshold is out of reach. For instance, learning to program i…

Meritocracy is a fallacious idea exactly because it ignores social context. It's the equivalent of talking about spherical cows. Meritocracy not only assumes you can judge merit perfectly and that merit is expressed perfectly, but also that it is observed and rewarded perfectly. None of these is true and none of this can be true in any human society.

It's a lot like trying to reason about society as a network of perfectly rational actors making optimal decisions. The problem is not only imperfect knowledge and flawed decision making but personal biases on all sides, and not all of these biases are undesirable (unless you are looking for an optimum devoid of all externalities).

E.g. you could argue that insufficient risk taking is a failure to execute on your potential merit, but you may be risk averse because you lack a social safety net (e.g. wealthy parents) or because you have vulnerable dependents (e.g. a sick or disabled spouse, parent or child).

Meritocracy only works on an abstraction of what people are, but people can't be that simply because they're human animals with emotions, desires and needs. And this doesn't even go into undesirable biases like (unconscious) racism or sexism.

--

Spoilers ahead:

That said, where a lot of surface level readings of the squid game (the game in the show) fail is that they take the Frontman at face value. The game is decidedly not meritocratic. To start with, the games are very much not a level playing field as the participants carry over advantages and disadvantages from their life outside the game (e.g. poor health, physical strength, age, etc). The games also intentionally disrupt any attempts at cooperation (e.g. by alternating between picking teams and picking opponents without making it clear which is which). Several participants even outright cheat or are aided by staff. And the penultimate game not only replaces any pretense of skill with pure chance but also changes the rules when one participant reveals a relevant skill. But more importantly than anything else, one of the participants is revealed to actually be the person who invented the game and participates freely, even beating (killing) other participants, but is spared the consequences (execution).

Not only is the society outside the game shown to be unjust and impact the pretense of meritocracy within the game, the Frontman actively sabotages a meritocratic victory in one of the games for the entertainment of the VIPs and one participant is exempt from all consequences because his wealth and status allows him to participate on his own terms and manipulate the other participants, skewing the results.

The participants don't volunteer to come back because the game is meritocratic, they come back because they think they have a chance. In fact ultimately the victor is a gambler who tried to win by uniting some of the weakest participants (though punished by having to cheat the seemingly most vulnerable person in order to survive), and a ruthless tactician willing to sacrifice everyone to get ahead but ultimately sacrificing himself out of regret. Heck, after weeding out most of the survivors in a blatant game of chance, one of the three finalists is gravely wounded (and consequently murdered) by sheer bad luck and we know that at least of the participants that made it to the game of chance got there by actively cheating their opponents (and at least one was "gifted" their place by another participant sacrificing themselves voluntarily).

If anything, the game demonstrates an environment intentionally set up to disrupt any attempt at solidarity (tho this idea was portrayed much more explicitly in The Platform) while blaming the individual for their failure in a system designed to prevent their success.

Re: Sorry, but you're already living in the “Squid Game”

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boy did you completely miss the meaning of it. They all live in a strongly capitalist society, which works in the same way as the squid game does, just less gory but still brutal. It is still a competitive race to the top where the losers are left behind. That's exactly capitalism and meritocracy for you, if you didn't get it yet. What the squid game organizers offer to them is, at least for once a fair-ish opportuni…

Might I suggest doing some introspection? Perhaps I “completely missed” the meaning of it. I hardly saw much discussion about the flaws of Korean society (and thus dont presume anything about it with my own biases — I didnt get the visual it was a “hellhole”). What I saw was a horrible father/son in gambling debt (his choice to gamble), a pretentious trader who overlevered and lost peoples money (his choice to be gre…

Look, just read this interview of the creator[0]. No more need to speculate or discuss what he meant, he will confirm what I'm already telling you.

A couple questions that should help clarify the meaning of the show:

> Why did Hwang create a horrifyingly brutal contest that holds human life so cheap? “Because the show is motivated by a simple idea,” he says. “We are fighting for our lives in very unequal circumstances.”

> Are you making a profound point about capitalism? “It’s not profound! It’s very simple! I do believe that the overall global economic order is unequal and that around 90% of the people believe that it’s unfair. During the pandemic, poorer countries can’t get their people vaccinated. They’re contracting viruses on the streets and even dying. So I did try to convey a message about modern capitalism. As I said, it’s not profound.”

- [0]: https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2021/oct/26/squid-g...

Re: Sorry, but you're already living in the “Squid Game”

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You get the same every time this is done: Hunger Games and Battle Royale were also hailed for much more than the competitive brutality idea they were built on, and really they had little else to offer but that. For some reason people seem to feel the need to say they enjoyed it for reasons other than just enjoying inventive, competitive death games (maybe they really do, I don't know). Anyway, I loved Squid Game but…

> For some reason people seem to feel the need to say they enjoyed it for reasons other than just enjoying inventive, competitive death games I guess that's because otherwise you are kind of taking on the role of the sadistic spectators. I'm not saying that's true but it might feel like that to some people. I kind of enjoyed Squid Game but I totally agree with you, I do not think it had much to offer in terms of soci…

What I think distinguishes Squid Game over The Platform most was that Squid Game directly portrays (and thus critiques) the society outside the "game" whereas The Platform is a self-contained allegory.

(Spoilers galore)

In both participants sign up without initially knowing what they're signing up for and in both there are volunteers who join despite understanding the violence and death, thinking they can "win" (i.e. the returning participants in squid game and the bureaucrat in The Platform). But while in the latter the only reason anyone would subject themselves to the system is suggested to be extreme naivety, in the former we are shown the desperation and hopelessness the participants face outside the game that drives them to such an extreme decision simply for the promise of a chance at getting out of their situation.

Both systems are set up to disrupt solidarity and cooperation (where The Platform even goes so far as to claim the exact opposite). Both pieces of media demonstrate those systems succeeding but end with an act of self-sacrifice.

But Squid Game gives us a motivation for participating in such a suicidal system and the most horrifying aspect of it is that it is not some kind of sci-fi dystopia but what TV Tropes would call "20 seconds into the future": a setting that feels mildly detached from our present but you could easily imagine being set in the present day in a Western country not unlike your own. Yes, the squid game itself feels excessive and has sci-fi or at least fantastic undertones, but the world outside it feels unsettlingly familiar.

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