A $5B hoard of aluminum • Hacker News Board

Re: A $5B hoard of aluminum

#81

Post by c_o_n_v_e_x » Tue, Nov 30, 2021, 1:26 AM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #17

The industry around the world is running out of aluminium. Aluminium mills are closing all around the globe, except for China. Why? No magnesium. And China don't let out its magnesium.

There's an ongoing theme with certain non-rare industrial materials like Aluminum/Aluminium, magnesium, and not-so-rare "rare" earths elements.

The materials are abundant in nature, however it's the ability or willingness to process those materials in country which is rare. For example, rare earths are dirty to process so developed countries have outsourced their pollution to China.

Re: A $5B hoard of aluminum

#82

Post by anonporridge » Tue, Nov 30, 2021, 1:38 AM UTC

Damogran6 wrote: post #80

barelysapient wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends by who you mean by 'we'. If you mean America, then coal consumption is down by nearly 50% since 2000[1]. If you mean the EU, then you'll be pleased to know we've also reduced our coal consumption substantially. The principle increase in coal use is China. They've almost 4x their use of coal in the last 20 years. They also are leading the world in construction of new coal consuming power plants -- both in Chin…

We’re just outsourcing our pollution.

Great point.

Similarly, we didn't actually abolish slavery. We in the west are still benefiting from literal chattel slavery. It's just not happening in our backyard, so we don't have to see it, even if we're still benefiting from it.

Re: A $5B hoard of aluminum

#83

Post by caf » Tue, Nov 30, 2021, 2:11 AM UTC

robocat wrote: post #48

monocasa wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, until the Bayer process was discovered to pull aluminum out of bauxite in the late 1880s, it was worth more than gold. Tutankhamen had an aluminum ankh very close to his body for that reason. And even for a long time after that, before we had a critical mass of aluminum for recycling, it was still extremely expensive because of how capital and energy intensive the Bayer process is. For that fifty or so years it…

> Tutankhamen had an aluminum ankh The ability to make Aluminium would be alien technology to the ancient Egyptian culture. There’s a good reason it’s production was only discovered in modern times. My guess is that you were thinking of Tutankhamun's meteoric iron dagger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tutankhamun%27s_meteoric_iron_... “Nineteen iron objects were discovered in the tomb of Tutankhamun, including a set o…

There was, however, ingots of aluminium among the French crown jewels for a while.

Re: A $5B hoard of aluminum

#84

Post by sumedh » Tue, Nov 30, 2021, 4:49 AM UTC

barelysapient wrote: post #68

AlexanderDhoore wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"at a time when the world is becoming less reliant on coal" No, we aren't becoming less reliant on coal. We should be but we aren't. Look at [1]. We actually consume more coal, oil and gas each and every year. [1] https://ourworldindata.org/energy-mix

Depends by who you mean by 'we'. If you mean America, then coal consumption is down by nearly 50% since 2000[1]. If you mean the EU, then you'll be pleased to know we've also reduced our coal consumption substantially. The principle increase in coal use is China. They've almost 4x their use of coal in the last 20 years. They also are leading the world in construction of new coal consuming power plants -- both in Chin…

> The principle increase in coal use is China.

because it builds products for US and EU?

Re: A $5B hoard of aluminum

#85

Post by anonporridge » Tue, Nov 30, 2021, 5:13 AM UTC

barelysapient wrote: post #68

AlexanderDhoore wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"at a time when the world is becoming less reliant on coal" No, we aren't becoming less reliant on coal. We should be but we aren't. Look at [1]. We actually consume more coal, oil and gas each and every year. [1] https://ourworldindata.org/energy-mix

Depends by who you mean by 'we'. If you mean America, then coal consumption is down by nearly 50% since 2000[1]. If you mean the EU, then you'll be pleased to know we've also reduced our coal consumption substantially. The principle increase in coal use is China. They've almost 4x their use of coal in the last 20 years. They also are leading the world in construction of new coal consuming power plants -- both in Chin…

> Depends by who you mean by 'we'.

Climate change is a global problem, so the only 'we' that really matters is the whole planet.

The western world decarbonizing after spending well over a century spewing carbon to build out their modern infrastructure is nothing to be deeply proud about, nor sufficient to give the moral high ground to start pointing fingers at the developing world that still wants to get closer to western lifestyles.

Re: A $5B hoard of aluminum

#86

Post by fulafel » Tue, Nov 30, 2021, 5:24 AM UTC

barelysapient wrote: post #68

AlexanderDhoore wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"at a time when the world is becoming less reliant on coal" No, we aren't becoming less reliant on coal. We should be but we aren't. Look at [1]. We actually consume more coal, oil and gas each and every year. [1] https://ourworldindata.org/energy-mix

Depends by who you mean by 'we'. If you mean America, then coal consumption is down by nearly 50% since 2000[1]. If you mean the EU, then you'll be pleased to know we've also reduced our coal consumption substantially. The principle increase in coal use is China. They've almost 4x their use of coal in the last 20 years. They also are leading the world in construction of new coal consuming power plants -- both in Chin…

And "reliant" - most of it goes to goods and services that are just nice to have.

Re: A $5B hoard of aluminum

#87

Post by conductr » Tue, Nov 30, 2021, 5:38 AM UTC

smallerfish wrote: post #65

conductr wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relative numbers can be misleading and saying coal consumption has decreased is actually false. We’re not doing Mother Earth any favors by sustaining very high consumption but the average reader would believe it’s a green trend.

I didn't say decreased, I said leveled off. Mouse over and compare 2011 with 2019. Of course we need to cut coal usage as far as possible, if not completely.

I know but the parent comment and original post said something like “less reliant on coal” which is a relative interpretation and your “leveling off” comment illustrates my point about how relative figures get misconstrued because you can’t exactly become less reliant on something when your consumption remains the same.

Re: A $5B hoard of aluminum

#88

Post by itzprime » Tue, Nov 30, 2021, 8:01 AM UTC

barelysapient wrote: post #68

AlexanderDhoore wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"at a time when the world is becoming less reliant on coal" No, we aren't becoming less reliant on coal. We should be but we aren't. Look at [1]. We actually consume more coal, oil and gas each and every year. [1] https://ourworldindata.org/energy-mix

Depends by who you mean by 'we'. If you mean America, then coal consumption is down by nearly 50% since 2000[1]. If you mean the EU, then you'll be pleased to know we've also reduced our coal consumption substantially. The principle increase in coal use is China. They've almost 4x their use of coal in the last 20 years. They also are leading the world in construction of new coal consuming power plants -- both in Chin…

Yes, but that is mainly due to the US & EU using more gas.

Re: A $5B hoard of aluminum

#89

Post by orlp » Tue, Nov 30, 2021, 9:31 AM UTC

pdabbadabba wrote: post #66

jaywalk wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A fire releases the "heat, light and various reaction products" that it does because of the speed of oxidation. It's obvious even from the snippet I posted that slow oxidation is not actually a fire.

Yes, but aluminum oxidizes rapidly yet this oxidation process does not produce significant heat and light. So in this context, the independent heat/light requirement makes a difference!

Mill aluminium under inert gas into a powder and then release the pure unoxidized powder into the air.

My money is on some fireworks occurring.

Re: A $5B hoard of aluminum

#90

Post by imtringued » Tue, Nov 30, 2021, 1:00 PM UTC

Damogran6 wrote: post #80

barelysapient wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends by who you mean by 'we'. If you mean America, then coal consumption is down by nearly 50% since 2000[1]. If you mean the EU, then you'll be pleased to know we've also reduced our coal consumption substantially. The principle increase in coal use is China. They've almost 4x their use of coal in the last 20 years. They also are leading the world in construction of new coal consuming power plants -- both in Chin…

We’re just outsourcing our pollution.

Around 14% of China's CO2 emissions can be attributed to exports. If you count the other 86% you're basically saying China is a western colony which it clearly isn't.