Live data from Hacker News

The sticky issue of consent in street photography

dinalitovsky.bulletin.com

81–90 of 292 posts

Re: The sticky issue of consent in street photography

#81
post #53

IMO, street photography is a low art form. It's walking around without a plan, snapping random snapshots of people and expect some meaning to come out on its own. The creation process is regulated to pressing a button and some minor processing. Perhaps similar to throwing buckets of paint at a canvas and seeing what comes out. It's usually derivative. Someone alone looking sad because that's their resting face. A bla…

I respectively disagree. I think people are attractive, in general, and in particular I like looking at people. For me, seeing a photo that captures a memorable or unusual moment in sports, in a performance, or even in a park or on the sidewalk is worth viewing. I agree with the original article that there is a creepiness to voyeuristic photos, and in the case of the woman on the bus photo I would be more comfortable…

[deleted]

Re: The sticky issue of consent in street photography

#82
post #67

There are so many bad takes in this. But mostly, I think the author is internally inconsistent on multiple fronts. In one paragraph she argues that the subjects of photos aren't upset by having their photo taken and then shared/promoted/published whatever. > Over the years, many people I’ve photographed have found themselves either in publications or on Instagram. Almost everyone asked me to send them a copy, thankin…

I think this is the best take.

The article really falls down at the end where the conclusion is basically, "I don't care about people's privacy concerns and discomfort because I like street photography and enjoy making it." With a hint of, "and other people like to look at it, too. (Ignoring the uncomfortable people who would immediately refuse to have their photograph displayed, if asked)". So the author is basically arguing that they know better than their subjects and think their favorite hobby is good for society. That's not a very convincing justification.

As others have mentioned, being surveilled for specific purposes which we can generally assume will be viewed by one or zero people is different than being frozen in time for many people to dissect and judge.

Re: The sticky issue of consent in street photography

#83
I sympathize with the author but I would consider non-consensual street photography ill-advised at best, not necessarily immoral. It's an accessibility issue, and like with many accessibility issues, it helps to engage in a "thought experiment."

Just like you would assume someone with a wheelchair may want to enter your public building, you should assume that when taking picture of strangers you are being invasive towards someone struggling with anxiety and body image. It doesn't mean you _are_ being invasive whenever you take photos, just like a person with a wheelchair may never want to enter your building. I personally don't feel comfortable taking photos of strangers except if they are very far away in the shot. The author mentions the "possibility of sometimes making someone slightly uncomfortable" but from personal experience that's not the worst case scenario.

And of course there are exceptions like emergencies where you should take photos.

"But for an action to transcend individual discomfort and enter the netherworld of immorality there has to be both a strong societal consensus as well as palpable, real-world harm resulting from it." I can't really agree... does something need to have "strong societal consensus" of immorality to be immoral? Does a wheelchair-inaccessible public building need a disabled person sitting at the entrance to be immoral?

Re: The sticky issue of consent in street photography

#84
I acknowledge that within a country, state, city, or on private property, I have no expectation for privacy from being recorded other than a few customary exceptions based on taboos against nudity, such as in the restroom or dressing rooms.

I understand a necessity for sometimes being taped for security purposes when I am near a country, state, city, or private property, and although I haven't consented, I accept that it's within the material interests of their management to monitor potential dangers nearby. I, however, expect that these materials will be used only for those purposes, and destroyed after they are not useful for those purposes. I expect this because I haven't consented to any use at all, but accept conditionally that socially, we think that this a legitimate usage.

I extend this to personal space: if someone wants to wear cameras to tape around their own bodies for security purposes i.e. to mitigate against the potential of someone committing a crime against their person, I accept that, but only for those reasons, and I expect no other use of the images, and for them to be destroyed after they have served that purpose. A person's eyes operate in a similar fashion, and I certainly cannot demand that people not look at me.

I also cannot demand that people not think about me, so I ask no control about the stories people tell about what they have seen (unless previously agreed), as those stories have been interpreted by a mind, are a significant transformation, and are really the essence of an individual and the most basic natural right if there is any such thing.

If I don't verbally object, I accept that a photograph taken of me that I am clearly aware of (if I see the camera in operation) can be assumed to have been consented to.

Outside of this, stay away from me. It's insane that photographers, people who completely make a living off of copyright because what they've done often takes very little creativity and can be reproduced trivially, are so cavalier about what other people can say no to.

The article shows this same attitude clearly. It starts with a covert argument, made covert because it is obviously not good, but not left out because it functions as an attack on people who question displaying and selling creepshots that you've taken of women in the subway. It then moves to what it thinks are two clear arguments (although the second is essentially just a restatement of the covert argument, but with a philosophical tone meant to make it sound more serious.) It then gish-gallops around, repeating itself with different rephrasings, and making declarations sound like observations.

-----

Covert Argument Zero: People who complain about a photograph taken without consent, in the author's experience, are not the ones in the photograph, but other people.

Answer: This is a barely tarted up version of the universal "troublemakers and agitators" argument. I'd note that, in general, more people see a photo than are in that photo, so the vast majority of people questioning its ethics would be expected to be among the people who see the photo. The article itself cites a lawsuit from the subject of a photo, but only to say "the courts think I should be able to do this too, although I'm still going to make an ethical argument and not hide behind the law, but the law supports me, or people doing things even worse than me."

-----

One: If you ask for consent, the picture won't be candid, and I prefer a candid picture. Also, the subject may ask for some editorial control over their image, and I don't want to give it to them because they may not like a photo that I like.

Answer: There is no part of ethical decision-making that requires preserving your business model.

-----

Two: a) What you like or don't like doesn't define what is right and wrong. In fact, "society" has agreed that I am right and you are wrong by not unanimously determining that I am wrong. Also, b) people cannot be harmed by photography which is anonymous[?], and in a public space[?].

Answer: This starts with an immediate hypocrisy in a). After declaring that consent wasn't necessary because with consent, you can't get the photo you want and you don't get the editorial control you demand, the author continues with an argument that personal preferences don't define what is right or wrong. She then declares that all is allowed unless it is universally condemned, notes that the type of photography she wants to do is not universally condemned, and makes an arbitrary declaration about an example behavior being universally condemned. Even worse, the author does it tautologically: "inappropriate touching" has been "universally determined to be flat-out wrong." No shit. "Inappropriate photography" is the same. When you put the adjective "inappropriate" in front of something, you're limiting your discussion to what is "not appropriate." This is a discussion about what is not appropriate. If your answer is "things that are inappropriate," you're not being responsive.

And b): is a simple declaration that photography cannot be harmful in the "anonymity of a public space." None of this discussion has been about people who are anonymous, all of it has been about people who are identifiable and who have not given consent. I'm going to guess that the "anonymity of a public space" being referred to here is the fact that since the photographer hasn't asked for consent, the subject is anonymous to the photographer. This is unbelievably solipsistic. It's just impossible for the author to escape the perspective of someone who is making a living from this, and the confidence that the subject is only important from the photographers' point of view (and always really desires this relationship although troublemakers are trying to get in the way.) No matter how anonymous I am to you, I guarantee that there exist other people that recognize me, whether or not I'm sharing a public space with you.

-----

The remainder are statements posing as arguments:

Q1: You are being photographed by other people outside.

A1: That does not mean that I consent to be photographed by you. I have a different relationship to each of the entities photographing me which imply various levels of consent. Just because I have sex with everyone else does not mean I'm obligated to have sex with you.

Q2: When you enter a public space, a lot of expectations for your privacy must be overridden.

A2: Why should you in particular be one of the people allowed to override them? Other people have administration and security considerations that may override my personal preferences. You have nothing but the desire to photograph me.

Q3: The difference between a surveillance camera and a photographer is intention.

A3: This intentionally narrows the world to "surveillance camera" and artistic photography, in order to use an algorithmic defense. Algorithms are by nature fine, because they don't intend anything. Obvious bullshit. Algorithms have the intention of the people who set them up. The intention of a security camera is security. Without that intention, it fails to be a security camera, and reverts to being a camera.

Q4: If the intention of the photographer is to ridicule or expose the individual, this "veers dangerously close" to being unethical. If the intention of the photographer is to masturbate, or to help others masturbate, it's obviously unethical.

A4: These are more personal declarations of universal condemnation disguised as deep ethical truths. If anything, the law has made more exceptions for photography meant to ridicule or expose individuals than photography that does not, because it becomes journalistic.

Q5: To conflate what she does to photography that ridicules, exposes, or arouses sexually is reckless and creates fear. This fear may result in people not wanting to be photographed, and makes them think that a photographer should be bound by their personal preferences.

A5: Tell me more about your problems, and why I'm a bad person for causing them.

Q6: is a random list of statements about how, actually, everything is alright and good. 1) There's war, but everybody can win, 2) there is no human sacrifice, 3) We are already protected from photographers doing what they want to do with an image [are we?], 4) specialized spying equipment like drones are illegal [why?], 5) A photographer can be tried for libel if there is a will to misrepresent [why?], 6) you can't use an image for commercial purposes without a consent form [is exhibiting, posting on twitter, or selling an image commercial, or do you just mean ads and porn?], 7) You can't use an image for an an ad [ah, you left out porn.]

Q7: "The law does its due diligence in safeguarding the subject"

A7: This is not an argument, this is a conclusion. It was a conclusion obvious from every sentence from the first on.

Re: The sticky issue of consent in street photography

#85
post #62

This made me think - and I've still not managed to produce a coherent viewpoint. Closest I can come up with is that there's some sort of asymmetric 'value' that sometimes appears from nowhere and this throws us off a bit. As people have mentioned, security cameras are filming me all the time - and I've no issue with that. My image has no value. It's one amongst billions of frames taken, that will be ultimately wiped,…

It is a difficult subject. A store security camera that cycles every weeks is no big deal. But what if there are cameras on every street corner run by the government and saved for 5 years? What about Ring footage of your neighborhood/building being saved for 5 years? The tough question is how do we separate what the data could be used for and what it is likely to be used for. And if we aren't vigilant now, could we just wake up one day and it is too late?

Re: The sticky issue of consent in street photography

#87

Streets/Subways are public, you have no expectation of privacy in public. Consent is implied. If you go into publicly accessible areas you will be on camera. However, a professional photographer despite knowing this would have asked for additional consent given the nature and subjects of the photo and their intentions on how the photo will be used.

No one is confused about what the current norm is. The author and other commenters are curious about the arguments for the implications and improvement or replacement of it.

Re: The sticky issue of consent in street photography

#88
This bit me hard.

I love street photography and have been active for a number of years. I have done some good work.

I never appreciated the freedom I had as a photographer in the US.

A while ago I moved to Norway.

I kept taking pictures. Working on two different concepts / series.

I got some good shots, the cultural differences in behavior, fashion, what is considered polite etc was inspiring.

I shared some shots with friends back in the states including my mentor. I got some food and valuable reviews, and one series was well liked. I had put 4- 5 month of effort into it. (not all day every day)

I was starting to wonder about how to go about publishing them.

Now I hate social media. I do not put my photos on Instagram, Twitter, or wherever else. This turned out to be a blessing.

I was visiting a few galleries to learn about the local scene and dip my toes in the water and see what it takes to get a few photos up.

I dont take along an iPad with photos, I stick to an old portfolio with printed photos.

I got a couple of stern lectures about Norwegian law, and that all my photos were to be considered illegal esp. if I were to show them anywhere.

It was fortuitous that I dont share my work.

I admit I was pissed off for a while and I have had to put Street Photography out of my mind.

I am left with two folders on a harddrive with work that I cannot display. I have not yet been able to delete all of them. I have thought about showing them in the US, the legality of which I have not been able to establish so that is off as well.

Re: The sticky issue of consent in street photography

#89
post #80
post #62

This made me think - and I've still not managed to produce a coherent viewpoint. Closest I can come up with is that there's some sort of asymmetric 'value' that sometimes appears from nowhere and this throws us off a bit. As people have mentioned, security cameras are filming me all the time - and I've no issue with that. My image has no value. It's one amongst billions of frames taken, that will be ultimately wiped,…

i do take issue with security cameras filming me. it bothers me, because yes, maybe the images get wiped unseen, but maybe not. how secure are those cameras? who gets access to the feed? on the other hand, if a photographer takes a photo of me, i don't care as long as the photo doesn't get published. i take photos myself, and in general my attitude is that publishing one of my photos requires the permission of all su…

"Racy Photos Were Often Shared at N.S.A., Snowden Says" - New York Times (July 20, 2014)

In 2021, to take a photo with a smartphone is to publish it, worldwide and forever.

(Of course I still take plenty of pictures of myself and friends. It's just not a clear line anymore what we get to control when social media and corporate/government leaks are everywhere)

Re: The sticky issue of consent in street photography

#90
post #62

This made me think - and I've still not managed to produce a coherent viewpoint. Closest I can come up with is that there's some sort of asymmetric 'value' that sometimes appears from nowhere and this throws us off a bit. As people have mentioned, security cameras are filming me all the time - and I've no issue with that. My image has no value. It's one amongst billions of frames taken, that will be ultimately wiped,…

Thinking about the security-cameras vs photographer thing:

- Security cameras: At least in theory, security camera footage is mostly private, and recorded with a specific, 'good' goal: if something happens, they have the security footage. It can be useful to me if someone robs me and they can get identified because they were filmed.

- Photographer: absolutely no use to me, and possibly going to share that picture on instagram, facebook, whatever, making 'everyone' knows that I was at there at that point.

Post reply on HN