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“Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

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Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#81

Post by t0mas88 »

grenoire wrote: post #45
microtonal wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the case in the Netherlands and a contract cannot revoke this right (Burgerlijk Wetboek 6:236). If you subscribe online, you should be able to unsubscribe online. Another thing that helps if you don't want to fight someone who violates this and they require you to send a letter, that an e-mail also qualifies as legally binding. So, if they ask a letter to end a subscription, they must also accept an e-mail. (…

T-Mobile Thuis literally delayed the end of my subscription by two months, and only cancelled it when I called back. There wasn't ever a way to cancel online. In practice they've really been truly garbage, lawful or not.

Ziggo is similar, very shitty customer service, and you have to talk to an aggressive sales person to be allowed to cancel. The moment fiber was delivered to my area I cancelled them and just hung up on the sales guy lying to me about how their speed was higher (it definitely isn't) than fiber.

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#82

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel »

Semaphor wrote: post #26
zorked wrote: post #2

Also a common practice in Europe (Germany, France, Switzerland...), but frequently even worse: click to subscribe, send a fucking letter to cancel it. Le Monde and Der Spiegel both do it. I'm a news junkie, I think paying for news is important, but I don't have even 1/4 of the subscriptions I would have if it wasn't for scummy tactics and/or the fear that I will be subject to them in the future.

I thought that was illegal already, and has been for a few years? Not sure if by EU or German regulation. FWIW, from 2022 on, Germany will have a 2-click unsubscribe law [0]. It requires clearly labeled buttons and forbids a lot of dark patterns. [0]: https://www.mofo.com/resources/insights/211006-new-two-click...

Most importantly, Germany has the Verbraucherzentralen which have the right to sue on behalf of (all) consumers.

Many countries that don't have that will have consumer protection laws that simply get ignored, because simply ignoring them works for the company.

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#83

Post by omnicognate »

nickforall wrote: post #33

I wouldn't get your hopes up too much. It has been illegal in Europe/the Netherlands for years, however it is not enforced at all. Most newspapers don't let you cancel without calling them, having to deal with sales people trying to convince you to keep your subscription.

Sounds like a juicy class action.

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#84

Post by rich_sasha »

fundatus wrote: post #79
rich_sasha wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few times I found it was easier to cancel a card than to cancel a subscription. I still find it insane that the "normal" way to pay for goods and services is to pass full details of your payment card, sufficient to make any future payment, and just trust the merchant. Surely the sane way is you generate some token they can redeem against, but you can e.g. expire it or modify it. It thankfully is now more of a thing…

It's not a token, but similar: Europe has Direct Debit mandates, which you give to the biller and they can be revoked. https://gocardless.com/guides/sepa/mandates/

That's better, agreed. But can I e.g. limit payment amounts on these?

On Direct Debits in the UK, the merchant just charges me whatever. This is for things like utilities and phone bills, so I don't have major trust issues, but still it irks me.

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#85

Post by Faaak »

wheels wrote: post #21
_Donny wrote: post #5

Living in Europe, I couldn't believe that if I wanted to unsubscribe to New York Times, I would need to call one of their hotlines which operated in US time-zones. IIRC the open hours were after midnight in my timezone, and their local hotline was out of order. I seriously thought that I had signed up for a phishing site ...

At least in Germany, having to cancel by sending a letter (or, amusingly, sometimes a fax works) is still common.

In general I write an e-mail saying "please don't make us waste more time by requiring me to send a letter and please revoke my current subscription".

Works somewhat

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#86

Post by treyfitty »

neya wrote: post #59

Fuck New York Times, I had to go through this chaos once and promised to never ever use any of their services ever again. I even went to the pain of making sure all my ad blockers were in full force when visiting the NYT. I developed a strong sense of hatred after realize what kind of slimy tactics they used to stop you from cancelling a subscription. One day, I found a loophole. I would email them requesting a cance…

Just to play devils advocate, can’t they just send it to collections if they really wanted to?

I did the same thing for a gym membership (NYSC) and they threatened collections 3 months later. Fortunately, they went bankrupt.

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#87

Post by imtringued »

wheels wrote: post #21
_Donny wrote: post #5

Living in Europe, I couldn't believe that if I wanted to unsubscribe to New York Times, I would need to call one of their hotlines which operated in US time-zones. IIRC the open hours were after midnight in my timezone, and their local hotline was out of order. I seriously thought that I had signed up for a phishing site ...

At least in Germany, having to cancel by sending a letter (or, amusingly, sometimes a fax works) is still common.

Stupidly enough, you have to cancel SEPA direct debit mandates with a written document to the merchant.

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#88

Post by wheels »

Faaak wrote: post #85
wheels wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in Germany, having to cancel by sending a letter (or, amusingly, sometimes a fax works) is still common.

In general I write an e-mail saying "please don't make us waste more time by requiring me to send a letter and please revoke my current subscription". Works somewhat

There are third party services that handle cancellation (e.g. Aboalarm) that are more reliable, and don't require any more time. I honestly just have an online fax account where I can upload a PDF to send a fax for like 20 cents, and that almost always works. It's still a dark pattern though.

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#89

Post by danuker »

dejj wrote: post #66
yosito wrote: post #52

What would the consequences be of subscribing to something with a disposable card, then deactivating that card instead of formally unsubscribing? Can companies send your information to a debt collector or somehow force you to pay since you didn't cancel? Can it affect your credit score?

German law knows “Dauerschuldverhältnis” (permanent indebtedness). If you don’t cancel the contract and just cease payment, the other party can obtain title against you, and eventually impound you.

I would suppose you'd have to actually have a choice in the matter. If you have to spend 30+ minutes to unsubscribe, surely it's not the only law that applies.

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#90

Post by f-jin »

rich_sasha wrote: post #74
KennyBlanken wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You hand that info to the merchant because your credit card company can issue chargebacks against them and that costs them a pretty penny with their payment processor, especially if it happens often. Credit card disputes almost always slant in favor of the customer. Folks just don't seem to realize: you make a reasonable effort with the vendor, and then go straight to your credit card company. I caught a restaurant "…

I believe this doesn't work with debit cards, which are the norm in Europe. Still though, it's a weird system. Instead of giving someone just enough permissions to spend my money, I give them permissions to spend all of it, with some other party reimbursing me if that goes awry (and I notice).

Can't speak for all of Europe, but my bank in the Netherlands (Rabobank) certainly does offer chargeback options on debit card purchases.
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