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The EPA allows polluters to turn neighborhoods into “sacrifice zones”

propublica.org

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Re: The EPA allows polluters to turn neighborhoods into “sacrifice zones”

#81

Post by woodruffw »

friedman23 wrote: post #75
vineyardmike wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now the industry is giving cancer to poor people and needs to be punished. Who is right and who is wrong? Yeah, if your industrial process causes cancer you need to re-engineer the process to be safer and polluting less, even if you were there first.

The engineers didn't set out to create processes that resulted in toxic by-products, your statement is not helpful at all.

No, but they did set out to create processes that fit into an economic envelope with forces (unchecked externalities) that encourage pollution. The engineers aren't evil people, but the incentive system that they participate in allows them to be more myopic than it ought to.

Re: The EPA allows polluters to turn neighborhoods into “sacrifice zones”

#82

Post by dd36 »

chrismeller wrote: post #71
vineyardmike wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now the industry is giving cancer to poor people and needs to be punished. Who is right and who is wrong? Yeah, if your industrial process causes cancer you need to re-engineer the process to be safer and polluting less, even if you were there first.

Sorry, but that seems a bit ignorant. A lot of the things we rely on every day have toxic byproducts. I’m not saying this is good, but by your logic you should give up your car because someone moved in to the lot next to you and built a house.

If your car is damaging property that’s not yours, then absolutely!

Re: The EPA allows polluters to turn neighborhoods into “sacrifice zones”

#84

Post by ethbr0 »

leereeves wrote: post #55
AutumnCurtain wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Gulf Coast seems rife with these spots, and of course with all population-linked metrics the Mississippi is apparent as a dividing line.

There are quite a lot in Pennsylvania, Ohio, and around Chicago too. What I'm wondering is why the shaded areas around the hot spots on the Gulf Coast are so much bigger than the shaded areas around hotspots elsewhere.

Most of it is plant scale, which the model presumably uses to generate affected area size.

So you may have one plant in Kansas and another one in Texas, but the Texas one processes and discharges 100x the volume the Kansas one does.

Which makes sense re: Gulf, because there's always more demand for oil, so most of the refineries probably operate more continuously.

Re: The EPA allows polluters to turn neighborhoods into “sacrifice zones”

#85

Post by toomuchtodo »

apocalyptic0n3 wrote: post #56
leereeves wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are quite a lot in Pennsylvania, Ohio, and around Chicago too. What I'm wondering is why the shaded areas around the hot spots on the Gulf Coast are so much bigger than the shaded areas around hotspots elsewhere.

Looks like they're oil refineries and related industry, which makes sense given how much oil is pulled from the Gulf. Pennsylvania has a bunch of metal processing industries. Given Pittsburgh's reputation for steel production, that makes sense too. Looks like a big blend of different industries in Chicago. That one I can't explain.

Chicago used to be (and somewhat still is) an industrial and transportation hub. A substantial amount of metals and chemical industry still operates there.

https://chicagodetours.com/history-of-chicago-transportation...

Re: The EPA allows polluters to turn neighborhoods into “sacrifice zones”

#86

Post by dd36 »

htek wrote: post #67

Jesus, this story is going to have all the bad takes. People's main takeaway from the article is, "it's just the way cities grow," "it's the zoning board's fault," "people moved near a cancer cluster, it's their fault," "you should be able to pollute an area you pay for." Seriously? The problem is the government allowing private corporations to poison the environment to benefit the bottom line of the corporations. I…

Property rights. Why can you spew your toxin into my air/land?

Re: The EPA allows polluters to turn neighborhoods into “sacrifice zones”

#87

Post by vineyardmike »

friedman23 wrote: post #75
vineyardmike wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now the industry is giving cancer to poor people and needs to be punished. Who is right and who is wrong? Yeah, if your industrial process causes cancer you need to re-engineer the process to be safer and polluting less, even if you were there first.

The engineers didn't set out to create processes that resulted in toxic by-products, your statement is not helpful at all.

> The engineers didn't set out to create processes that resulted in toxic by-products, your statement is not helpful at all.

if the engineers did not set out to create a process free from polluting carcinogens, then they did something wrong.

Re: The EPA allows polluters to turn neighborhoods into “sacrifice zones”

#89

Post by vineyardmike »

chrismeller wrote: post #71
vineyardmike wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now the industry is giving cancer to poor people and needs to be punished. Who is right and who is wrong? Yeah, if your industrial process causes cancer you need to re-engineer the process to be safer and polluting less, even if you were there first.

Sorry, but that seems a bit ignorant. A lot of the things we rely on every day have toxic byproducts. I’m not saying this is good, but by your logic you should give up your car because someone moved in to the lot next to you and built a house.

There is a difference between a person driving a car, and a factory spewing off a criminally high level of carcinogenic chemicals.

> A lot of the things we rely on every day have toxic byproducts

And we should stop and fix that. Why do we accept this as ok?

> by your logic you should give up your car because someone moved in to the lot next to you and built a house.

My logic says we should phase out cars that we know kill people. Maybe build cars that use a new, less-polluting method of pollution. Like EV! We solved this issue with cars, maybe Exxon should solve their issue with petroleum.

Re: The EPA allows polluters to turn neighborhoods into “sacrifice zones”

#90

Post by francisofascii »

dantheman wrote: post #41
kaiju0 wrote: post #37

This is a pretty typical growth pattern. Industrial zone establishes and city is set far away in a safe area. City expands and resident need cheap housing. The cheap housing is built near the industrial zone as that is how economic forces work. People then see this and say they built industrial next to the poor people when the opposite occurred. Now the industry is giving cancer to poor people and needs to be punishe…

It's the same when people move next to the airport and then complain about noise. In general this can be solved with an extension of property rights, the industrial zone/airport/music venue etc can own the rights to "pollute" the neighboring areas, much like buying air rights in a city. Then it's clear when you purchase / rent / what level of noise / pollution you can expect. This allows market forces to work, if aft…

The right to pollute should never be granted in perpetuity. If anything, it should be a recurring cost that increases or decreases based on the how much polluting is occurring. That way the markets work in incentivizing less polluting.
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