Live data from Hacker News

Goodbye, MIT

city-journal.org

81–90 of 120 posts

Re: Goodbye, MIT

#81

> MIT’s leadership apparently took umbrage at his statement of these simple facts: that George Floyd “had not lived a virtuous life” (based on his multiple criminal convictions) Surely the authors know that "statement of facts" has the ability to completely alter the interpretation of the rest of the content. Key questions are: why is this fact relevant in this context, what is the author conveying by bringing this i…

To me the issue is that they fired the guy. It's one thing to disagree with someone's statement or political views, it's another to fire them over it. It might be different if the chaplain was blatantly racist. But even if we read his statement as "I don't think George Floyd was innocent here" - that is not something you should get fired over. You can't compare this to white supremism, he didn't even imply George Flo…

You miss the point of what’s actually happening on campuses.

If you’re white you are racist. You have to constantly prove you are not or you just are.

It’s an original sin argument.

Re: Goodbye, MIT

#82
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of these replies seem to co-mingle the concepts of equal opportunity and equal outcome. The foundation of a free society is personal responsibility. Personal outcomes in such a system are pretty much guaranteed not to be the same (equal), since different people will use their freedom in different ways. Sucks for kids of irresponsible parents, who truly don't have self-autonomy. But then again, our society is full…

> But then again, our society is full of compassionate safety nets for such kids. That really depends on what you are referring to by "our society." If you're talking about the US, many would dispute that characterization.

I'd not call it a characterization but a fact. I was initially thinking of Western(ized) society, although a moment's reflection suggests to me that it's nearly all current human society. For starters, (nearly?) every nation offers free public education. Westernized nations offer food assistance or some form of welfare for low- or no-income families. There are countless other programs at just at this "systemic," nation-state level; then consider that the world abounds with private and religious charities, which although they mostly hail from wealthier nations, dispense educational and life support to children (and adults) around the world. A myriad of privately-sponsored orphanages in India. Whatever the Gates foundation is doing this week in Africa. Privately sponsored open-to-the-community schools and day cares in Harlem. The list is endless.

Re: Goodbye, MIT

#83
post #56

Did MIT actually fire Father Daniel Moloney? Quoting the very top of the linked article about him: > Two days later, the Archdiocese of Boston forced him to resign because of it.

MIT did not, or at least it was not reported as such by Boston-area news outlets. From CBS Boston:

  The Archdiocese of Boston asked Rev. Moloney to resign as 

  Catholic Chaplain at MIT and he agreed.

  “The personal opinions echoed in his comments regarding 

  the murder of George Floyd do not reflect the positions of 

  the Archdiocese,” spokesperson Terrence Donilon told WBZ- 

  TV in a statement Wednesday.
https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/06/17/mit-catholic-chaplain...

Re: Goodbye, MIT

#84
post #47

> MIT’s leadership apparently took umbrage at his statement of these simple facts: that George Floyd “had not lived a virtuous life” (based on his multiple criminal convictions) Surely the authors know that "statement of facts" has the ability to completely alter the interpretation of the rest of the content. Key questions are: why is this fact relevant in this context, what is the author conveying by bringing this i…

A core purpose of a church is to identify and evaluate: 1. What a virtuous life is. 2. How to live one. 3. What examples exist of people who have lived one. 4. How practically achievable a virtuous life is. The chaplain is doing his job here. He is supposed to identify that Floyd hasn't lived a virtuous life, but he is still part of a greater community and that a virtuous person would help Floyd live the best life he…

> The chaplain is doing his job here.

The Church in which he is ordained clearly disagreed, as the Archdiocese (not the school) asked him to resign as chaplain.

Even assuming this is blameworthy at all, blaming the school for dismissing him is nonsensical.

Re: Goodbye, MIT

#85
I can't dispute most of their concerns.

However, an argument can be made that it was appropriate for Fr. Moloney to leave his role as chaplain. That he chose to state unsentimental judgments about a murdered person was perhaps unusual for a chaplain.

Re: Goodbye, MIT

#86

> MIT’s leadership apparently took umbrage at his statement of these simple facts: that George Floyd “had not lived a virtuous life” (based on his multiple criminal convictions) Surely the authors know that "statement of facts" has the ability to completely alter the interpretation of the rest of the content. Key questions are: why is this fact relevant in this context, what is the author conveying by bringing this i…

To me the issue is that they fired the guy. It's one thing to disagree with someone's statement or political views, it's another to fire them over it. It might be different if the chaplain was blatantly racist. But even if we read his statement as "I don't think George Floyd was innocent here" - that is not something you should get fired over. You can't compare this to white supremism, he didn't even imply George Flo…

> To me the issue is that they fired the guy.

But, they (the school) didn’t.

He resigned. And, yeah, he was asked to resign, which is very much like being fired, but he was asked to resign his post as chaplain by the Archdiocese of Boston, not MIT. Why? Well…

Moloney wrote on June 7: “George Floyd was killed by a police officer, and shouldn’t have been. He had not lived a virtuous life. He was convicted of several crimes, including armed robbery, which he seems to have committed to feed his drug habit. And he was high on drugs at the time of his arrest. But we do not kill such people.” And: “In the wake of George Floyd’s death, most people in the country have framed this as an act of racism. I don’t think we know that. Many people have claimed that racism is a major problem in police forces. I don’t think we know that.”

Sean Cardinal O’Malley, Archbishop of Boston wrote, in a “Letter to the People of the Archdiocese of Boston” on June 5 (that is, two day before Moloney’s email, so Moloney would—if not completely negligent—have been aware of it when writing his own missive): “The murder of George Floyd, an African American citizen, at the hands of four rogue police officers was tragically all too familiar to the African American community. During our lifetimes there has been the reality of the Negro Travelers Green Book, identifying locations where African Americans stop and stay in our country with less likelihood of being attacked. We have seen the Ku Klux Klan’s brutal lynchings of innocent black people. And we have now again witnessed heinous violence perpetrated by some who were entrusted with the duty to protect. George Floyd’s death makes clear that racist premises and attitudes, often implicit, are woven through basic structures—political, legal, economic, cultural and religious—in the United States.” And he wrote, later in the letter: “Going forward, the reality of racism in our society and the moral imperative of racial equality and justice must be incorporated in our schools, our teaching and our preaching. We must uphold the commitments to equal dignity and human rights in all institutions of our society, in politics, law, economy, education. Catholic teaching on social justice measures the way a society acts fairly or not. Our work will not be done until African American men, women and children are treated equally in every aspect of life in the United States.” [0]

Moloney wasn’t forced out because of a conflict with MIT leadership over a statement of simple facts. He was forced out because of a conflict over the basic pastoral responsibilities of the Church in the context of then-current events with the Church official to whom is entrusted, under Canon Law, the charge to “take care that [presbyters, a.k.a priests] correctly fulfill the obligations proper to their state” and the power and duty “to govern the particular church entrusted to him with legislative, executive, and judicial power” [1]

This wasn’t MIT “wokeness” impinging the freedom of the Catholic chaplain to minister to the community, this was the Catholic Church in the Boston Archdiocese taking action because a chaplain was acting at odds with the pastoral priorities identified by the highest authority in that particular church.

The story being spun here by Hafer and Miller is propaganda where facts are discarded and replaced with more convenient fictions where it advances the political narrative.

[0] https://www.bostoncatholic.org/george-floyd

[1] Canon 384; Canon 391, Sec. 1; https://www.vatican.va/archive/cod-iuris-canonici/eng/docume....

Re: Goodbye, MIT

#87
I see so many Asian parents, many first generation immigrants to the United States, working several jobs, working their tales off to put their kids through good schools. Spending time with their kids, disciplining their kids, which is not easy and not pleasant for the parents. Marriages are hard for everyone, with disagreements, fights, bitterness, sacrifices. And yet, all these Asian parents stay together and endure for their kids. And this is the reward these Asian parents get from the society? For their kids to be put at the end of the line? I am glad the authors had the courage to speak up.

Re: Goodbye, MIT

#88

I see so many Asian parents, many first generation immigrants to the United States, working several jobs, working their tales off to put their kids through good schools. Spending time with their kids, disciplining their kids, which is not easy and not pleasant for the parents. Marriages are hard for everyone, with disagreements, fights, bitterness, sacrifices. And yet, all these Asian parents stay together and endure…

Sorry am I missing some context / recent news here? I reread the blog / letter and I dont see how that relate to Asian parents.

Re: Goodbye, MIT

#89
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A core purpose of a church is to identify and evaluate: 1. What a virtuous life is. 2. How to live one. 3. What examples exist of people who have lived one. 4. How practically achievable a virtuous life is. The chaplain is doing his job here. He is supposed to identify that Floyd hasn't lived a virtuous life, but he is still part of a greater community and that a virtuous person would help Floyd live the best life he…

> The chaplain is doing his job here. The Church in which he is ordained clearly disagreed, as the Archdiocese (not the school) asked him to resign as chaplain. Even assuming this is blameworthy at all, blaming the school for dismissing him is nonsensical.

It isn't clear that the church actually objected that much, for all their statement to the contrary. It isn't like they defrocked him or anything. It is more likely that MIT asked for him to be sacked and they took a decision not to fight over it because it wouldn't be helpful. What the chaplain was trying to do here was entirely in line with how he was meant to act.

I wasn't blaming anyone but it does seem quite likely that this action was driven by MIT rather than the church. The church hasn't fired him, MIT has had him moved on from their campus. The church is being relatively proportional about the whole business.

Re: Goodbye, MIT

#90
post #74
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're rapidly running out of time.

Interesting take, can you elaborate on that?

Not parent poster but I would guess that there's now hundreds of thousands of students going through institutions like MIT who are being indoctrinated, who will be coming to a work force near you real soon. They will be demanding (and I've seen this already first hand) for everyone to fall into line with the wokeness. Spineless leaders will listen to them and fear them, and as we have seen already, do as they demand.
Post reply on HN