What to Learn • Hacker News Board

Re: What to Learn

#81

Post by cratermoon » Mon, Oct 18, 2021, 7:49 PM UTC

yibg wrote: post #74

cratermoon wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> either go figure out how to help and help or shut the fuck up and keep walking. No, he's saying that you don't tell someone who is hungry "if you would learn to fish, you wouldn't be hungry" and leave it at that. Especially don't do this if you don't know how to fish yourself. But do, if you know that "learning to fish" is good, team up with the other person and learn to fish together. At the very least, you can he…

That doesn't sound very good in real life scenarios either. I can provide feedback without necessarily knowing how to fix it. For example, if someone I work with consistently have a hard time communicating their ideas, I can and should provide that feedback, even without knowing how they can fix it. At the very least if they realize the issue, they can attempt to go fix it themselves. Providing feedback in general is…

> I can provide feedback without necessarily knowing how to fix it

But at least you provide guidance on how and where to learn the solution as well, yes? I don't imagine anyone going around telling people what they should do but not being able or willing to guide them to where they can find out how to do something. Also, I don't see providing advice that is both unsolicited and uninformed as being a gift. That's the sort of thing that cause most people to react poorly and perhaps say, "mind your own business".

Re: What to Learn

#82

Post by cratermoon » Mon, Oct 18, 2021, 8:05 PM UTC

xyzelement wrote: post #57

cratermoon wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> either go figure out how to help and help or shut the fuck up and keep walking. No, he's saying that you don't tell someone who is hungry "if you would learn to fish, you wouldn't be hungry" and leave it at that. Especially don't do this if you don't know how to fish yourself. But do, if you know that "learning to fish" is good, team up with the other person and learn to fish together. At the very least, you can he…

I get the point you are making and the "hunger" example is obviously a painful one. But I actually think feedback should be shared freely. EG: if I have bad communication skills, yes ideally someone coaches me. But at least, random feedback of "wow that meeting went badly" - hearing that from many people over and over - may make me aware of the area and look into it myself. Like, if I am starting to get fat, I want p…

> if I am starting to get fat, I want people to tell me

But would you want random people to tell you, unsolicited, "you're fat, you need to lose weight".

Also, I'm obligated to note that the energy balance model of weight gain and loss has come under close scrutiny in recent research, and it is never as simple as eat less, exercise more. https://www.nature.com/articles/ejcn2011132

Re: What to Learn

#83

Post by lazyasciiart » Mon, Oct 18, 2021, 8:13 PM UTC

xyzelement wrote: post #65

ihodes wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I agree with your argument, directionally, but in the case of the C++ hacker, might it be the case that he needed to find a different role, job, and/or manager to really leverage the power of a 98%tile C++ programmer?

That's a legit option and actually that's what happened with this guy - we moved him to a parser team from a client-facing team. But we both recognized that as a bit of "defeat" - we failed to improve his communication, so as plan B how do we help him not get fired. The point I am making and that I don't want to get lost is: there's a huge difference between "I am consciously choosing to be a C++ hacker" vs "I am fal…

Why is that a defeat? Did he think he was good with people, or want to interact with clients? Or at your company was the parser team a professional dead-end or something?

Re: What to Learn

#84

Post by lazyasciiart » Mon, Oct 18, 2021, 8:23 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #71

stonecharioteer wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I wonder about this a lot. If I have a developer on my team who needs to learn X, or get better at Y, I can always offer that feedback and it is construed as constructive feedback. But if I tell a developer who can't speak well or communicate lucidly that they need to work on their communication skills, that comes across as offensive. There was a horrible architect at my previous organization who was universally l…

I know a Korean Engineer with terrible English. He is well aware how bad it is, but has no idea how to fix it. I'm a terrible speller (seems to be related to disgraphia - but the diagnosis didn't exist when I was a kid) with no idea how to fix it. It is one thing to say fix your greatest weakness, if it is easy you should. However for many there is more gain from improving on a strength and avoiding situations where…

In both of those, it seems that you could hire a professional and ask them how to fix it. English as a second language for professionals is an incredibly common subject, he could easily find a class or hire a tutor. If it's holding him back at work then at least some consultation would be worth the cost.

For your spelling, it's probably not as easy to find someone targeting you as a demographic, but I'd look for someone who does tutoring for kids with dysgraphia/dyslexia etc. There's a lot of quite specific techniques that are used based on increasing understanding of the underlying causes of spelling difficulties - if you've never learned any targeted at your weaknesses, I bet you could make a noticeable improvement quite quickly. I'd aim for someone who is using research-based methods, since there's still a lot of more folklore-based teaching around on core skills like writing.

Re: What to Learn

#85

Post by lazyasciiart » Mon, Oct 18, 2021, 8:30 PM UTC

xyzelement wrote: post #57

cratermoon wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> either go figure out how to help and help or shut the fuck up and keep walking. No, he's saying that you don't tell someone who is hungry "if you would learn to fish, you wouldn't be hungry" and leave it at that. Especially don't do this if you don't know how to fish yourself. But do, if you know that "learning to fish" is good, team up with the other person and learn to fish together. At the very least, you can he…

I get the point you are making and the "hunger" example is obviously a painful one. But I actually think feedback should be shared freely. EG: if I have bad communication skills, yes ideally someone coaches me. But at least, random feedback of "wow that meeting went badly" - hearing that from many people over and over - may make me aware of the area and look into it myself. Like, if I am starting to get fat, I want p…

You might want feedback that tells you something new. But if you're steadily gaining weight and several people have told you, I bet you're less interested in hearing it from another five people every day. Especially if you happen to know that the weight gain is due to e.g. a new medication you're on because you've made a calculated decision that the benefits are worth the unavoidable weight gain, or that you have been eating badly because you're rushed and emotional while caring for a sick parent.

Re: What to Learn

#86

Post by xyzelement » Mon, Oct 18, 2021, 8:30 PM UTC

lazyasciiart wrote: post #83

xyzelement wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a legit option and actually that's what happened with this guy - we moved him to a parser team from a client-facing team. But we both recognized that as a bit of "defeat" - we failed to improve his communication, so as plan B how do we help him not get fired. The point I am making and that I don't want to get lost is: there's a huge difference between "I am consciously choosing to be a C++ hacker" vs "I am fal…

Why is that a defeat? Did he think he was good with people, or want to interact with clients? Or at your company was the parser team a professional dead-end or something?

Good question. It's a three part defeat:

First, are you living your own best life? If you ask him "do you want to be limited by comms skills for the rest of your life, in all the ways it affects you and home and at work" he's say "no, I'd rather not have this problem" but then we couldn't really get it to change. So he fell short of his own recognition of what his life could be.

Second, it just limits you. There's nothing wrong with writing parsers and someone has to do that, but there's a difference between "choosing" that and "being limited to it." Versatility and capability is important. Say he wanted to go work somewhere else, the more skills and versatility you have, the more options you have.

Third, even within such a job you're still limited. EG: are you having a technical debate on your team? The better you can communicate, the more likely you are to advocate well for your solution, the more likely your good ideas will materialize, etc.

Re: What to Learn

#87

Post by bo1024 » Mon, Oct 18, 2021, 9:18 PM UTC

borroka wrote: post #44

stonecharioteer wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I wonder about this a lot. If I have a developer on my team who needs to learn X, or get better at Y, I can always offer that feedback and it is construed as constructive feedback. But if I tell a developer who can't speak well or communicate lucidly that they need to work on their communication skills, that comes across as offensive. There was a horrible architect at my previous organization who was universally l…

One day I saw a colleague-to-be with their bare feet on the the desk, I looked at them and I said, "that's a no". He apologized and we moved on. But I also told the guy sitting next to them, "why didn't you say anything to them?".

Maybe it didn't bother that guy.

Re: What to Learn

#88

Post by zerr » Mon, Oct 18, 2021, 9:44 PM UTC

xyzelement wrote: post #19

I believe the thing we often need to learn is the thing we're afraid of learning. We often (always?) have weaknesses that can/do jeopardize our strength and closing those weaknesses is crucial. The famous Scott Galloway (whom I had as a b-school professor) made this point like this: if you are a great guy, great father, great boss, etc, but once in a while you get violently drunk and hurt people in your life - THAT t…

Neurodiversity is a thing. Companies compete with each other on how good diversity stats they have, only taking in count visual appearance while on the behavioral side it is expected that everyone is the same corporate employee archetype.

Re: What to Learn

#89

Post by Jensson » Mon, Oct 18, 2021, 9:46 PM UTC

xyzelement wrote: post #19

I believe the thing we often need to learn is the thing we're afraid of learning. We often (always?) have weaknesses that can/do jeopardize our strength and closing those weaknesses is crucial. The famous Scott Galloway (whom I had as a b-school professor) made this point like this: if you are a great guy, great father, great boss, etc, but once in a while you get violently drunk and hurt people in your life - THAT t…

> It sounds simple but I believe this held him back not just in work but in life. I happen to know that he didn't have great communication with his wife and kids either - solving this thing would make him so much better at all parts of his life.

Did he improve? Or do you just think he could improve? Maybe he had already tried to work hard on his communication skills and this was as good as it gets, so to avoid the stress of failing over and over he just stopped trying? There is nothing wrong with that, having a programmer who can write good code is valuable even if you need a technical product manager to talk to him. It might not be as valuable, but at some point life is more important than stressing out about things you can't fix.

Similarly we don't blame all the product managers etc who never improve their technical skills enough to talk with such engineers. People have limits, some have more limits than others, we just have to learn to accept that people are different instead of demanding that they have the same skills as us.

Re: What to Learn

#90

Post by xyzelement » Mon, Oct 18, 2021, 9:50 PM UTC

zerr wrote: post #88

xyzelement wrote: post #19

I believe the thing we often need to learn is the thing we're afraid of learning. We often (always?) have weaknesses that can/do jeopardize our strength and closing those weaknesses is crucial. The famous Scott Galloway (whom I had as a b-school professor) made this point like this: if you are a great guy, great father, great boss, etc, but once in a while you get violently drunk and hurt people in your life - THAT t…

Neurodiversity is a thing. Companies compete with each other on how good diversity stats they have, only taking in count visual appearance while on the behavioral side it is expected that everyone is the same corporate employee archetype.

I don't understand your point.

Neurodiversity is a thing, but not every flaw and limitation can be attributable to an immutable biological fact about a person, and thus we have many opportunities to improve a grow.

If I told myself when I graduated college that I either had no problems or they were all permanent, I'd be a fucking mess of a 40 year today. In reality, so many good things professionally and personally came to me because at some point I looked at what I was/did and said "I don't want to do this anymore"