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Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

esghound.substack.com

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Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#81

Post by ESGHound »

aazaa wrote: post #53

The article shows many tables without ever quoting sources. In the previous article in the series, the author claims: > ... I’m a “forensic environmental data specialist” (I invented the term just now). I use the troves of free to the public data located in regulatory submittals and permits to extract useful information. ... Great. If free to the public, where are the links? Clicking on those table images just links…

I've cited every single claim I've made. And no, I'm not a fan of Musk.

From a legal and technical standpoint, My work has been run through legal, environmental, and oil and gas engineers I've worked with over the years.

Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#82

Post by lazide »

inglor_cz wrote: post #75
lazide wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, and I have a bridge to sell you. The technology already exists. Fundamentally (damn laws of thermodynamics) it is also a energy negative process, and hence expensive. It is far cheaper to just frack and burn fossil fuels (where that energy expense was paid however many millions of years ago by someone else), than it is to expend the energy to reverse the process - even if they were getting nearly free energy.

They will rely on the Sabatier process to produce fuel on other celestial bodies. And the corresponding technology must be tested first - why not in Boca Chica? I don't think that anyone is trying to make the claim that SpaceX will use the Sabatier process to fuel Starships here on Earth right now routinely . As you say, gas is cheaper to buy here on Earth. But they still must have the technology mastered before they…

The process IS already mastered, depending on the bar you set?

This isn’t something unknown or theoretical.

Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#83

Post by mhh__ »

DennisP wrote: post #31
speedybird wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could it be that SpaceX is answerable only to the FAA and is immune to the EPA? Why is it on the FAA to regulate a well? I think the author of the article should work on including a bit more exposition and a bit less snark (if he actually intents to persuade people, anyway.) Also I'm a bit confused why people are surprised the methane for these rockets will come from a well. Did people really think Elon Musk was…

The ultimate plan is actually to make it from water and CO2 in the air, using the same tech they'll use to make methane on Mars for the return trip. They're just not there yet.

Is it possible that they are in for the money and the grand plan is just marketing even if they would do it if they could?

Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#84

Post by lazide »

Denvercoder9 wrote: post #66
lazide wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, and I have a bridge to sell you. The technology already exists. Fundamentally (damn laws of thermodynamics) it is also a energy negative process, and hence expensive. It is far cheaper to just frack and burn fossil fuels (where that energy expense was paid however many millions of years ago by someone else), than it is to expend the energy to reverse the process - even if they were getting nearly free energy.

SpaceX wants to make a roundtrip to Mars, though. There's no fossil fuels on Mars.

And if it doesn’t make any economic sense to do it here, where it is super convenient, shipping it to Mars (with nothing of known value there to return or any known economic model that could make it worthwhile) to do it there is going to be worth it?

Not saying all human endeavor needs to have a healthy profit margin. SpaceX is a business however and besides doing it for the lulz, or getting a government contract, it doesn’t make much sense to try to spin up colonies or the like there. Everyone will starve and/or their US backers will go bankrupt pretty quick.

Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#85

Post by coenhyde »

stefan_ wrote: post #3

The context here seems to be that SpaceX is in fact building an old boring fracked well gas plant in federally protected land, but because they cursorily mention rockets and call it a "methane processing thingamajig" instead of what it plain is, the FAA who has no experience doing environmental review but is involved because rockets is all too happy to just nod it through.

Some more context. If I understand correctly this gas plant is need to power a desalination plant which is need to produce massive amounts of water which will be used to implement a sound suppression deluge system that is required by the FAA. Salt water will corrode everything and there isn't existing water and gas infrastructure in place to lean on. ie they have to build the stack from scratch.

Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#86

Post by elif »

stefan_ wrote: post #3

The context here seems to be that SpaceX is in fact building an old boring fracked well gas plant in federally protected land, but because they cursorily mention rockets and call it a "methane processing thingamajig" instead of what it plain is, the FAA who has no experience doing environmental review but is involved because rockets is all too happy to just nod it through.

did you read the article? they are building a methane refining facility. The author is speculating that it will be capable of refining gas which has been mined by fracking. that's the extent of the story...

Please cite your claim of "SpaceX is in fact building an old boring fracked well gas plant"

Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#87

Post by elif »

Denvercoder9 wrote: post #66
lazide wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, and I have a bridge to sell you. The technology already exists. Fundamentally (damn laws of thermodynamics) it is also a energy negative process, and hence expensive. It is far cheaper to just frack and burn fossil fuels (where that energy expense was paid however many millions of years ago by someone else), than it is to expend the energy to reverse the process - even if they were getting nearly free energy.

SpaceX wants to make a roundtrip to Mars, though. There's no fossil fuels on Mars.

Yup and musk also argues in favor of a carbon tax. He is openly hopeful that the fundamental economics will be changed to make producing their own methane via Sabatier economical.

It is up to the controllers of incentive structures to change the fundamentals of commerce/ecology.

Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#88

Post by inglor_cz »

spamizbad wrote: post #22

People are being critical of SpaceX for this, but it makes perfect sense for their business model. As climate change disrupts life on earth there will be greater demand for SpaceX's and Tesla's products and services. It is only rational Elon Musk would seek to accelerate climate change - it would be foolish of him to try and stop it. Every ton of carbon in the atmosphere will eventually become money in his pocket.

A back of the napkin calculation shows that launching 1000 Starships a year is still a rounding error in humanity's carbon footprint.

If Elon wants to measurably accelerate climate change, he's doing it all wrong. So, in all likelihood, he doesn't.

Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#89

Post by heavyset_go »

davidgerard wrote: post #68

Just pinged ESGHound that his post had made the HN front page, and now he knows where the new readers flaming him on Twitter were coming in from https://twitter.com/ESGhound/status/1449471403225337856

As an aside, it's nice to see that you're on HN, David!

Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#90

Post by gpm »

ESGHound wrote: post #70
lvs wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not entirely true. The EPA has federal authorities under the Clean Air Act, Clean Water Act, and the Safe Water Drinking Act to regulate wastes derived from extraction activity into air and water supplies. The exemptions and authorities are complex, but it's incorrect to say there's no federal regulation over this activity in the state of Texas.

It's not true at all. Federal regulations dictate most environmental standards and in top of that TCEQ is a very competent and at times tough regulator. EPA definitely has a dog in the fight, especially considering that a 250 megawatt power plant would be a literal "major stationary source" under the clean air act

I don't know anything about this sort of regulation, but it might be worth noting that the PEA does indicate that SpaceX will be seeking a permit from TCEQ (on page 42 of the PEA)

> SpaceX would apply for authorization under the Oil and Gas Standard Permit with the TCEQ and adhere to any permit conditions

https://www.faa.gov/space/stakeholder_engagement/spacex_star...

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