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SUVs are offsetting EV car gains

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Re: SUVs are offsetting EV car gains

#81

Post by morsch »

trhway wrote: post #79
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It is not even close to "waste", it is saving the planet in maximum comfort. It's less wasteful than the ICE equivalent but in no way can it be described as saving the planet. If you are really serious about saving the planet then you buy a bicycle.

>If you are really serious about saving the planet then you buy a bicycle. bicycle is 100miles/kwh. Human body is 25% efficient, so it is just 25 miles/kwh for the energy coming in the food - so for all the bicycle disadvantages (low speed, open to elements, no meaningful cargo capacity) it is only meager 10x difference with that 2+ tons BMW i4 (and only 7x difference with my Prius Plugin). The kwh in human food is m…

I think the implied assumption is that you don't spend 6 hours a day riding the bike you just bought. Though conveniently, the obesity rates are high enough that even this wouldn't require an increase in calorie intake in the top polluting countries and would in fact be an overall improvement to national health. And you'd still produce much lower emissions.

On a sidenote, >10% of conventional fuel is made via agriculture, and seemingly around 5% of electricity production in the US, 10% in EU28[1].

[1] https://www.bpb.de/nachschlagen/zahlen-und-fakten/europa/751...

Re: SUVs are offsetting EV car gains

#82

Post by SargeDebian »

tdrdt wrote: post #11

Meanwhile the German city Tübingen is raising the parking fee for SUVs by 6 times and other cities are thinking about this as well. They are too big for those cities. https://www.rtl.de/cms/tuebingen-parkgebuehren-fuer-suv-fahr...

When you read the article:

-It's currently €30/y for a permit and due to a change in law they're changing that to €120 for everyone.

-For anyone over 1800KG, that becomes €180/y. So "heavy car" drivers pay 1.5x what a lightweight car driver pays

-That limit is increased to 2000kg for EVs. That does mean that a early adopters who drive a Model S are likely to pay the increase tariff as well.

Sure, still not a bad idea but quite far removed from the oneliner "raising the parking fee 6x for SUVS"

Re: SUVs are offsetting EV car gains

#83

Post by taurath »

morsch wrote: post #2

Alternatively, the 536 hp, 5018 lbs (2276 kg) BMW i4 ("1,000 lbs (454 kg) more than most other 3 and 4 Series BMWs", not known as lightweight cars in the first place) apparently "is the electric BMW sedan you’ve been waiting for". New ways of wasting energy in maximum comfort, all around. https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/10/the-2023-bmw-i4-is-the-...

Quite OT, but the design language of BMW seems lost. I don’t know why the grill needs to be the most distinguishing feature on an electric car.

Re: SUVs are offsetting EV car gains

#84

Post by tdrdt »

SargeDebian wrote: post #82
tdrdt wrote: post #11

Meanwhile the German city Tübingen is raising the parking fee for SUVs by 6 times and other cities are thinking about this as well. They are too big for those cities. https://www.rtl.de/cms/tuebingen-parkgebuehren-fuer-suv-fahr...

When you read the article: -It's currently €30/y for a permit and due to a change in law they're changing that to €120 for everyone. -For anyone over 1800KG, that becomes €180/y. So "heavy car" drivers pay 1.5x what a lightweight car driver pays -That limit is increased to 2000kg for EVs. That does mean that a early adopters who drive a Model S are likely to pay the increase tariff as well. Sure, still not a bad idea…

Ah, I now see another article that states it is 6x more than the country's average. So it seems it has to do more about this specific city than SUVs.

Re: SUVs are offsetting EV car gains

#85

Post by londons_explore »

tashbarg wrote: post #64
londons_explore wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can get similar fuel savings by following a big vehicle like a truck. Even at a safe following distance, the already moving air behind a truck lowers your effective speed by 20mph or so, saving 25-50% of the fuel bill. Trucks that have very little ground clearance (eg a big mudguard across the back) work best. In the extreme case, in an EV, you can end a journey with more battery than you started with if you foll…

I seriously doubt those numbers (-50% fuel, energy harvesting by driving behind a truck) AND you are giving incentive to try dangerous driving. Please either back those numbers up with evidence or remove them for the sake of road safety.

On a flat (private) road, big container-hauling truck, 65mph, stick shift car following 20 feet behind... Put the car in neutral and you can follow for miles. You need to tap the brakes occasionally to stop yourself getting too close to the truck. That tells me no engine power is being used.

Obviously it's unsafe to do on the public road for a bunch of reasons, but it really shows how good automated vehicle convoys could be for the environment if they can get close enough.

Here is a video of the effects of the same airflow: https://youtu.be/xkbe2NP30Fs

Re: SUVs are offsetting EV car gains

#86

Post by pjmlp »

llampx wrote: post #73
pjmlp wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess if they can afford an SUV, they can afford two cars.

SUVs are more expensive on average than sedans or hatchbacks, but are not indicative of luxury clientele.

They surely are, people that count pennies to buy a class B car (rental category) aren't going to get any of those.

Re: SUVs are offsetting EV car gains

#87

Post by dzhiurgis »

Apocryphon wrote: post #21
k8sToGo wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great. The rich can park while the poor cannot afford.

Who drives SUVs?

I will until my kids grow up, then might do small sedan. They are just too good with kids. Great for long trips too, but I rarely do those.

Re: SUVs are offsetting EV car gains

#88

Post by eptcyka »

robocat wrote: post #69
eptcyka wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electric cars are heavier, yes. And its easier than ever to get mad power out of electric motors. And it still will be more efficient than literally all ICE powered SUVs. In fact, the power figures are irrelevant IMO, as electric motors scale with demand a lot better. It is incredibly hard to make a reliable ICE that will be incredibly efficient and also capable of big power, but with electric motors, the only downsi…

CO2 output is a fixed manufacturing output (approximately proportional to vehicle cost ignoring taxes/incentives) plus a variable output approximately proportional to distance. If you buy an electric vehicle for short lifetime distance (say, because trip length is limited), you can easily end up producing more CO2 from an electric vehicle than a cheaper ICE vehicle (depending at your location on how a marginal extra…

The average age of cars on the road is above 10 years, if I recall correctly. This is plenty of time to rack up enough mileage to offset the carbon cost of manufacturing. Using averages, it seems like replacing a car with average MPG (25) with a car with 35 MPG, it only takes 7 years of driving to be better off CO2 wise. It takes even less for electric cars. I think most people overestimate how much CO2 is produced during manufacturing vs how much CO2 is produced by driving. I'm mostly going off of this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2IKCdnzl5k

Moreover, I don't believe that there is a daily commute that's more than 120 miles each way, and this is well within the capabilities of even reasonably priced electric cars today. If you have a charger at your workplace, you could accommodate even longer trips, however colder weather might make a big dent in the range of most electric cars.

Re: SUVs are offsetting EV car gains

#89

Post by adrianN »

jnsaff2 wrote: post #10
morsch wrote: post #2

Alternatively, the 536 hp, 5018 lbs (2276 kg) BMW i4 ("1,000 lbs (454 kg) more than most other 3 and 4 Series BMWs", not known as lightweight cars in the first place) apparently "is the electric BMW sedan you’ve been waiting for". New ways of wasting energy in maximum comfort, all around. https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/10/the-2023-bmw-i4-is-the-...

Also, people in the EV conversion world tended to think that weight was the killer of efficiency. They later found out by experience that weight was much less important than wind resistance with the conclusion that speed is mostly killing your efficiency (along with shape of the car).

Regenerative braking offsets a lot of the extra weight.

Re: SUVs are offsetting EV car gains

#90

Post by stepbeek »

taurath wrote: post #83
morsch wrote: post #2

Alternatively, the 536 hp, 5018 lbs (2276 kg) BMW i4 ("1,000 lbs (454 kg) more than most other 3 and 4 Series BMWs", not known as lightweight cars in the first place) apparently "is the electric BMW sedan you’ve been waiting for". New ways of wasting energy in maximum comfort, all around. https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/10/the-2023-bmw-i4-is-the-...

Quite OT, but the design language of BMW seems lost. I don’t know why the grill needs to be the most distinguishing feature on an electric car.

I made this comment to my wife yesterday. I like an aggressive grill on a car but find it quite funny that it’s becoming more fashionable as air intake is becoming less important.
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