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You either die an MVP or live long enough to build content moderation

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Re: You either die an MVP or live long enough to build content moderation

#81
It drives me absolutely nuts when I encounter a video platform upstart that has not adequately prepared (or prepared at all) for the inevitable onslaught of undesirable and illegal content that users will soon start uploading if the platform has really any traction at all. No UGC site/app is immune. Even when prepared, it is an eternal, constantly-evolving battle as users find more clever ways to try to hide their uploads or themselves. If you aren't ready for it at all, you may never be able to catch up. And while a lot of the undesired content could just be really annoying to get rid of, some is catastrophic -- a user uploading a single video of something like child porn that is publicly visible can be the death knell for the platform.

I’m going to go ahead and refute some of the counterarguments I’ve heard a million times over the years just to get it out of the way.

“It could be a while before it’s necessary.”

People seeking to upload and share unsavory content are constantly getting kicked off every other platform for doing so, and thus are always on the lookout for something new to try where they might be able to get away with it, at least for now. They are the earliest adopters imaginable.

“Just let users flag content”

Lots of issues here, but here’s a couple big ones.

1. You cannot afford something like child porn to be visible long enough to be flagged, or for it to be seen by anyone at all. If something like this gets uploaded and is visible publicly, you could be screwed. I worked on a video platform once that had been around a couple years and was fairly mature. One video containing child porn managed to get uploaded and be publicly visible for about one minute before being removed. It was a year before the resulting back-and-forth with federal agencies subsided and the reputation of the platform had recovered.

2. People uploading things like pirated content tend to do so in bulk. You might see people uploading hundreds of videos of TV shows or whatever. It may exceed legitimate uploads in the early days of a platform. You do not want to burden users with this level of moderation, and actually they aren’t likely to stick around anyway if good videos are lost in a sea of crap that needed to be moderated.

“We’ll just use (some moderation API, tool, etc.)”

Yes, please do, but I’m not aware of anything that works 100%. Even if you filter out 99% of the bad stuff, if the 1% that gets through is kiddie porn, say goodnight. These tools get better all the time, but users who are serious about uploading this kind of stuff also continue to find new and interesting ways to trick them. As recently as 2017 a pretty big video platform I worked on was only able to stop everything with a combination of automated systems as well as a team overseas that literally checked every video manually. (We built a number of tools that enabled them to do this pretty quickly.)

Content shouldn’t be moderated

Child porn? Hundreds of pirated episodes of Friends instead of legitimate user videos? (Even if you are pro-piracy, you don't want to pay to host and serve this stuff, and you don't want it to distract from legit original content from your users.) What about when some community of white supremacists gets wind of your new platform and their users bomb it with all their videos?

Do not take this stuff lightly.

EDIT: I've spent most of the last decade as an engineer working on UGC and streaming video platforms

Re: You either die an MVP or live long enough to build content moderation

#82
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you gone on darknet sites? They have moderation too, or else they get filled with CP and terrorist propaganda just like every other service. I guess that's "fine" if you're anonymous and don't think the FBI will find you. But if you're running a business on the clearnet there's a real name and address and there will be real life consequences. The FBI gets interested real fast if you don't moderate posts that enc…

Yes, near daily.

While that's great, you didn't really address the actual point of that post. I would like to hear your take on that.

Re: You either die an MVP or live long enough to build content moderation

#83
There is no correct way to do the content moderation, so on my website, https://roastidio.us I don't plan to have any. My rules are simple:

* you can say whatever you want to say, but only one person, the one you replied to, get to see it other than youself

* the one you replied to get to approve whether it can be shown to other people. No further reply is allowed until this one is approved.

* Even the one you replied to don't approve your comment, the comment will not be deleted and will still be visible to you.

Re: You either die an MVP or live long enough to build content moderation

#84
Can't help but think back to W. Edwards Deming's distinction between after-the-fact efforts to "inspect" quality into the process -- as opposed to before-the-fact efforts to build quality into the process.

OP offers a first-rate review (strategy + tactics!) for the inspection approach.

But, the unspoken alternative is to rethink the on-ramp to content-creation privileges, so that only people with net-positive value to the community get in. That surely means a more detailed registration and vetting process. Plus perhaps some way of insisting on real names and validating them.

I can see why MVPs skip this step. And why venture firms still embrace some version of "move fast and break things," even if we keep learning the consequences after the IPO.

But sites (mostly government or non-profit) that want to serve a single community quite vigilantly, without maximizing for early growth, do offer another path.

Re: You either die an MVP or live long enough to build content moderation

#85

I'll never forget having to be a moderator for a somewhat popular forum back in the day and oh man did I learn how a few people can make your life hell. One thing not mentioned many times in these discussions are the poor moderators. Having to look at all that stuff, some of which can be very disturbing or shocking (think death, gore, etc as well as the racy things) really takes a toll on the mind. The more automatio…

Even without seeing that stuff, seeing a constant stream of bad behaviors with the probably-good behavior filtered out can subtly change your priors about people - it makes you start thinking people suck more in general, kind of like how watching news where they show the worst of the worst makes one trust people less.

I definitely used to notice this after some time working on our moderation queues.

Re: You either die an MVP or live long enough to build content moderation

#86
post #74
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For adversarial problems like this, a shadowban approach can sometimes be necessary. Perhaps people can still see their blogs but GoogleBot gets blocked from indexing them, or they only appear to someone with the spammer's cookies. That way it takes them longer to catch on and evade the model. Of course, that means you'll need to at least spot check your bans because you can't rely on legit users escalating to you.

We shadow ban abusive users on Fly.io and it works great. Everything seems to work right up until they try to connect to a deployed app. It took me a while to realize that ramping up the frustration level is, itself, a helpful deterrent.

Are you doing this because of resource usage?

If resources are free then you could even actually deploy their app and either whitelist it for their own IP or only allow very few requests before taking it down.

This would be even more frustrating and could ruin whatever they plan to do with their abusive app in the first place. Let's say they deploy their malware/phishing page, test it a couple of times (possibly from a different IP) and it works. They then start spamming the malicious link and waste decent amounts of time/money/processing power, not realizing that the link was dead after the first 10 hits.

Re: You either die an MVP or live long enough to build content moderation

#87
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you detect the ground truth for training the model? Do you manually label it?

Yes, simple classification. Nothing fancy. Basically, pulled the database into CSV file and anything that was published before the bad content was classified as HAM. We had content that were OK, so marked as HAM and then our new bad content all marked as SPAM. When deployed to production for some hours HAM content got wrongly marked and model got trained on them as well which made so many confusion but the problem wa…

Hmm I wonder if it picked up timestamps as its initial filter.

Re: You either die an MVP or live long enough to build content moderation

#88
post #78
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a mechanism for appealing the automated process?

Not sure if I understand correctly, but if you mean how re-training and deployment would be. Nothing fancy tbh. For the first several deployment while taking care of edge case and debugging, all manually on my own laptop and shot into cluster as a docker image. Later, when starting to classify more content on the platform itself: - Webhook will trigger the CI to train the model with new ham and spam content. - A new…

I think they meant (and I am interested in hearing about) appealing a "block" decision that was made by your automation.

If I'm a real human and trying to post a "good" post, but the model classifies it as bad and automatically blocks it, how do I appeal that decision? Can I? Or is my post totally blocked with no recourse?

Re: You either die an MVP or live long enough to build content moderation

#89
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I built a Python library for finding strings obfuscated this way. Was critical when moderating our telegram channel before an ICO. https://github.com/wanderingstan/Confusables E.g. "𝓗℮𝐥1೦" would match "Hello"

I should have had better eyes while searching, could find this and saved some hours.

I only learned about it myself after spending too long building my own half-baked version. I think it's in pretty opaque language that makes it hard to find even if you know what you want.

Maybe somebody else on here will see it and learn about it before they need it, and at least you still have a new tool to reach for in the future.

Re: You either die an MVP or live long enough to build content moderation

#90
post #78
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a mechanism for appealing the automated process?

Not sure if I understand correctly, but if you mean how re-training and deployment would be. Nothing fancy tbh. For the first several deployment while taking care of edge case and debugging, all manually on my own laptop and shot into cluster as a docker image. Later, when starting to classify more content on the platform itself: - Webhook will trigger the CI to train the model with new ham and spam content. - A new…

I think he's talking about false positives.
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