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Turing Oversold?

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81–90 of 311 posts

Re: Turing Oversold?

#81
post #8

I feel like it's really weird to call what Gödel was doing computer science.

Right - in Gödel’s mind, he was trying to model how mathematics works - the same applies to the problem Hilbert and co were framing in the Entscheidungsproblem. They were wrestling with the foundational philosophy of how powerful mathematics could ever claim to be.

Turing I think resonates as a computer scientist more than a mathematician for the same reason that Ada Lovelace does: both of them shared, and made explicit in how they approached problems, the insight of the generalizability of computability beyond mathematics. Where Babbage saw a calculating machine spitting out numerical tables, Lovelace saw music and pictures. And not in the implicit reductive way most mathematicians assume that anything important can be modeled as mathematics: because if it can’t be modeled mathematically, it can’t be important. Turing and Lovelace both seemed to get that this is a mathematics that can act on anything, and that that’s what makes the mathematics interesting.

The extension beyond ‘and this lets you derive any provable true statement within a formal system in finite time’ to ‘and this lets you carry out any deterministic transformation on an arbitrary piece of text’ to something like ‘if machine translation is possible this machine can do it’ or ‘a sufficiently sophisticated machine like this could hold a convincingly human conversation’ is a through-line you can only make with Turing’s insights, not just Church or Gödel’s.

And sure, you need Shannon to give you a framework for information representation that extends it to any form of data and dozens of other contributions of course, and without the mathematical foundations of Church and Gödel et al there’s no foundation to build it on at all. But Turing’s bridge out of the mathematical philosophy world into the realm of stuff engineers like Zuse were building seems like as good a moment as any to draw a line and say ‘this is computer science’.

Re: Turing Oversold?

#82
post #12

His cryptographic achievements during WW2 were also vastly oversold. Most of the theoretical breakthroughs needed to crack Enigma were made by Polish mathematicians, but it was more palatable for the British government to put a Brit forward, just as they did for penicillin.

I think this is true of Enigma as of start of WWII. But Enigma was modified many times over the duration of the war, needing not just "number crunching" but genuinely new methods. So Enigma was genuinely re-broken, a few times, at Bletchley Park, indeed by an all-British team, but yes, easy to forget the little people who did all the initial work.

“Little people” seems like a strange choice of words. In this case, these were foundational contributions.

Re: Turing Oversold?

#83
I started reading "the computer and the brain", derived from the unperformed silliman lectures by John von Neumann.

The foreword of this small book is almost as large as the main content and does an excellent job of contextualising it in terms of more recognisable modern technology; but also in terms of the contributions, the cyclical relationship between contributors to the field (Chruch, Turing, von Neumann) and how they inspired and fed off each other. Admittedly the writer has bias towards von Neumanns contributions, yet it is still clear that although he was clearly an incredibly smart, inventive and forward thinking individual ahead of his time - the parts that happened to landed on his lap were a product of collaboration between many brilliant people.

Re: Turing Oversold?

#85
post #47
post #38

Just the references here are probably an amazing resource for early computer science, and I'm not going to argue against such a force. Seems to be a lot of uneasiness, of late, about the way credit is allocated in science. IMO, it's mistaken to point this at the top: nobel laureates, heroic icons like Einstein or Turing. These figures are supposed to be idolized and idealized. Yes, this is "untrue," technically. But,…

Right, we shouldn't underestimate the importance of narratives. We need narratives about the theoretical foundations of computer science, and Turing is the perfect figure to weave many of those narratives around. It's good for young people and the general public, and good for the field. The Turing machine is a key conceptual model for understanding the basics of computation. The Turing Test is a great model for think…

Don't forget the tragic way society later betrayed him.

Re: Turing Oversold?

#86
He's not oversold. His major feat (breaking enigma using a computer) is miscategorized into Computer Science, where it should be classified into Computer Engineering and Software Engineering, alongside other stars like Charles Babbage and Ada Lovelace. His second major feat (the Turing Machine model) is one stone among the many foundational stones of Computer Science.

Re: Turing Oversold?

#87
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a misunderstanding of the Turing machine model. The Turing machine is not designed to be a realistically implementable physical machine, and indeed there are no details in Turing's paper on how such a physical machine could be achieved. I’ve read the paper. I think we just take different things from it, possibly because you have a background in mathematics? To me, the main takeaway (if I imagine reading it…

The Turing machine has a tape of unbounded size so can’t be built simpliciter. Moreover although it turns out that that model of computation is very robust and sufficient for all purposes in physics (unless black holes or something allow hypercomputation) Turing does not really definitively show that and in a way that can’t be definitively shown. All we have is a lack of counterexamples (admittedly a very convincing…

> The Turing machine has a tape of unbounded size so can’t be built simpliciter.

On the contrary, I think this is one of the advantages of Turing’s model: I can imagine standing there in my garage looking on as my universal Turing machine is running low on tape on the left side, and then simply attaching a new roll of fresh empty tape at the end, holding it as it is fed into the machine. :)

It’s simply the least leaky abstraction of computation.

Re: Turing Oversold?

#88
An ad fontes breadcrumb elucidation I think that passes through Gödel 1934, in §9 "General recursive functions". "...this leads to the question what one would mean by 'every recursive function'. One may attempt to define this notion as follows...", and remites to footnote 34: "This was suggested by Herbrand in private cummunication". Finally the note points to the article post scriptum where Gödel appraises (later) Turing work as settling what would become known Church's thesis, that Turing machines exhaust all 'mechanical procedures'. "In consequence of later advances, in particular of the fact that, due to A. M. Turing's work, a precise and unquestionably adequate definition of the general concept of formal system [by defining 'mechanical procedure'] can now be given..."

Re: Turing Oversold?

#89
post #30

Relative to the 0 times I have ever heard his name mentioned vs. the countless times I have read about him on manic midnight wikipedia binges, I think Zuse seems very unsung.

Not completely surprising (from Wikipedia):

“While Zuse never became a member of the Nazi Party, he is not known to have expressed any doubts or qualms about working for the Nazi war effort.”

Re: Turing Oversold?

#90
post #12

His cryptographic achievements during WW2 were also vastly oversold. Most of the theoretical breakthroughs needed to crack Enigma were made by Polish mathematicians, but it was more palatable for the British government to put a Brit forward, just as they did for penicillin.

I think this is true of Enigma as of start of WWII. But Enigma was modified many times over the duration of the war, needing not just "number crunching" but genuinely new methods. So Enigma was genuinely re-broken, a few times, at Bletchley Park, indeed by an all-British team, but yes, easy to forget the little people who did all the initial work.

The team being 'all-British' for obvious security reasons. Which I imagine might have felt like and insult to an injury to the 'little people', who, despite cracking the code, were not permitted to continue working on it. Making them, you know, 'little people'.
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