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Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

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Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#81

Post by smolder »

zamadatix wrote: post #72
gtirloni wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What tangible benefits are you getting from choosing AMD now? Honest question as I'm curious if there's another benefit besides price (which Intel is fighting now).

Most stuff eventually turns into cost so I'll ignore "costly" effects like heat/power and performance per dollar and focus on max performance scale for workloads and other unique differences not achievable via just throwing more money at the alternative. Per socket performance scaling is higher for equivalent tier sockets. At hyperscale that goes back into the price benefit (buy and maintain less physical data center…

I had a sister comment which wasn't as thorough as yours so I deleted it. It's worth adding though that for mobile applications, power consumption isn't just a cost factor, since better efficiency means you can have tighter packaging, get more battery life, not roast your lap as much, have quieter cooling, etc.

Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#82

Post by ddalex »

VortexDream wrote: post #45
AussieWog93 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That new player would need to have 20 billion dollars of money to play along though. From what I understand, quite a few national governments are at least looking into setting up their own local chip plants since semiconductors have become a critical industry. On that scale, $20b is not a huge speed hump.

All of these projects AFAIK involve enticing a company like TSMC to build new plants, not building their own competitor in the market. I don't think there's any appetite in Europe to invest tens of billions in building their own chip industry.

> appetite in Europe to invest tens of billions in building their own chip industry.

Why would they. They build the machines that create the chips. TSMC would merely manage the chip building orders and the consumables. In case of national emergency I doubt that any government would have qualms about nationalising the factories.

Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#83

Post by nightski »

dippersauce wrote: post #54
swalsh wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After purchasing an M1, i'm starting to realize how viable ARM is as a main platform. Nearly everything I want to run on it has a natively built version, and runs great on it. I could easily move anything I've built to a server running ARM with little frustration. I think that may be a bigger part of the coming future.

Before M1 my only exposure to ARM has been low-power SBCs and Android devices, and the experience was mediocre in the “just works” department. Poor hardware support, and a lack of proprietary software support. Performance was also lacking. Apple’s tight integration and high-end CPUs have resulted in a vastly better experience, but I want to have more options than just macOS and MacBooks. I think we’re trending in the…

M1 is great but not everyone wants a SoC. I like the ability to swap out parts in my PC build.

Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#84

Post by codeflo »

tenebrisalietum wrote: post #59
dippersauce wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before M1 my only exposure to ARM has been low-power SBCs and Android devices, and the experience was mediocre in the “just works” department. Poor hardware support, and a lack of proprietary software support. Performance was also lacking. Apple’s tight integration and high-end CPUs have resulted in a vastly better experience, but I want to have more options than just macOS and MacBooks. I think we’re trending in the…

> If Microsoft could fix their frankly horrid x86 compatibility on aarch64 device I don't think Microsoft is the real problem there, though. NT was developed to be portable and was working on architectures other than x86 in the beginning. So it was interesting when I heard things about "Windows on ARM" half a decade ago--and then the Surface RT. The RT was crap, but it did have real Windows NT working on non-Intel AR…

I'm not so optimistic. There are some technical things Microsoft did poorly when going from x86 to x86-64, which in my opinion delayed the transition of a lot of software by a decade. And this is with processors that can run both instruction sets natively, where no actual software emulation was required.

To give some context (this started with Windows Server 2003 64-bit and is still how it works in Windows 11): Instead of implementing fat binaries like OS X did, they decided to run old x86 applications in a virtualized filesystem where they see different files in the same logical path. This results in double the DLL hell nightmare, with lots of confusing issues around which process sees which file where. For many usecases around plugins, this made a gradual transition impossible. (Case in point: The memory hungry Visual Studio is currently still 32-bit. Next release will hopefully finally make the switch.)

Also, it’s surprising how much stuff in Windows depends on loading unknown DLLs into your process, like showing the printer dialog. So you run into these problems all the time.

Have they learned their lesson? It doesn’t look like it. Last I checked, x86 on ARM uses the exact same system as x86 on x86-64. If they ever emulate x86-64 the same way, that’s triple DLL hell right there. And I don’t think they’ll get a decade to sort things out this time around.

Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#85

Post by zamadatix »

smolder wrote: post #81
zamadatix wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most stuff eventually turns into cost so I'll ignore "costly" effects like heat/power and performance per dollar and focus on max performance scale for workloads and other unique differences not achievable via just throwing more money at the alternative. Per socket performance scaling is higher for equivalent tier sockets. At hyperscale that goes back into the price benefit (buy and maintain less physical data center…

I had a sister comment which wasn't as thorough as yours so I deleted it. It's worth adding though that for mobile applications, power consumption isn't just a cost factor, since better efficiency means you can have tighter packaging, get more battery life, not roast your lap as much, have quieter cooling, etc.

Good point regarding batteries

Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#86

Post by mizzack »

cletus wrote: post #80

It's amazing how far Intel has fallen. The 10nm debacle exposed how far they've fallen behind on fabs to the point that they're outsourcing to TSMC. Like, how humiliating must that be? Intel completely missed the mobile revolution. They had a stake in that race but sold it (ie XScale). Intel's product segmentation is bewildering. They've also kept features "enterprise" only to prop up high server chip prices to the d…

> And on the server front, which I'm sure is what's keeping them in business now, they face an existential threat in the form of ARM.

HPC and inertia. Lots of inertia.

Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#87

Post by mmastrac »

cletus wrote: post #80

It's amazing how far Intel has fallen. The 10nm debacle exposed how far they've fallen behind on fabs to the point that they're outsourcing to TSMC. Like, how humiliating must that be? Intel completely missed the mobile revolution. They had a stake in that race but sold it (ie XScale). Intel's product segmentation is bewildering. They've also kept features "enterprise" only to prop up high server chip prices to the d…

XScale was an awesome processor. Not only was it competitive, but it was 100% completely open and documented.

Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#88

Post by woofie11 »

cletus wrote: post #80

It's amazing how far Intel has fallen. The 10nm debacle exposed how far they've fallen behind on fabs to the point that they're outsourcing to TSMC. Like, how humiliating must that be? Intel completely missed the mobile revolution. They had a stake in that race but sold it (ie XScale). Intel's product segmentation is bewildering. They've also kept features "enterprise" only to prop up high server chip prices to the d…

I think one more issue is support. If I want a chip from TI, Analog Devices, etc., I fill out a web form and get a sample. If I want to talk to an engineer, I place a phone call. If I want to order a dozen of a part, I go to Digikey. If I want a datasheet, it's online.

Intel won't give you the time of day unless you're HP or Dell. That's optimal for capitalizing on old markets, but it means it's never in new markets. It always starts at a disadvantage. It's not that Intel never has chips startups want to use; it's that it's impossible to engineer with most of them.

By the time a product has enough marketshare for Intel to care, they need to displace an existing supplier.

This means they could never really diversify outside of PCs.

Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#89

Post by pclmulqdq »

woofie11 wrote: post #88
cletus wrote: post #80

It's amazing how far Intel has fallen. The 10nm debacle exposed how far they've fallen behind on fabs to the point that they're outsourcing to TSMC. Like, how humiliating must that be? Intel completely missed the mobile revolution. They had a stake in that race but sold it (ie XScale). Intel's product segmentation is bewildering. They've also kept features "enterprise" only to prop up high server chip prices to the d…

I think one more issue is support. If I want a chip from TI, Analog Devices, etc., I fill out a web form and get a sample. If I want to talk to an engineer, I place a phone call. If I want to order a dozen of a part, I go to Digikey. If I want a datasheet, it's online. Intel won't give you the time of day unless you're HP or Dell. That's optimal for capitalizing on old markets, but it means it's never in new markets.…

Intel and AMD are both like that, and it makes me wonder how much space they have opened up for ARM. I would love a small x86 SoC if it came with the same level of support that an NXP or TI ARM chip has, but they don't.

Re: Intel is reducing server chip pricing in attempt to stem the AMD tide

#90

Post by mschuster91 »

dimitrios1 wrote: post #79
tambourine_man wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the parent meant an anecdote I've heard many times, in slightly different ways. It goes like this: a major toothpaste company was having a meeting, trying to increase sales. Many solutions were tried: new flavors, advertising, none had much effect. On a whim, a director asks the guy serving coffee: - Jack, what would you do to increase sales? - Have you tried increasing the hole on the toothpaste? There might…

It's amazing how backwards we went from a sustainability perspective when you consider likely no one had this issue front and center as they did in the early industrial days. We used reusable metals and glasses much more. Now everything is plastic.

On the other side, just take a "Tragerl" of beer (German beer crate with 20x0.5l):

- It weighs much more than a crate of 20x0.5l aluminium cans or plastic bottles

- it is more voluminous: glass bottles have way thicker walls and they need plastic spacers to prevent the bottles from crashing each other, whereas cans and bottles can be shrinkwrapped just fine)

- the return logistics are simpler: glass bottles and the crates have to be returned to the brewery to be refilled, whereas PET bottles and aluminium cans enter the normal, regional recycling stream

The switch to plastics has saved lots of money and environmental pollution in logistics. What was missed though was regulating recycling capabilities of plastics - compound foils are impossible to separate, for example - and mandating that plastics not end up in garbage, e.g. by having a small deposit on each piece of plastic sold.

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