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Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

wsj.com

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Re: Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

#81

Post by realusername »

bildung wrote: post #73
em3rgent0rdr wrote: post #39

ElectricityMap is a nice live view of current energy generation and consumption by type of energy. Unfortunately right now https://www.electricitymap.org/zone/DE shows Germany is generating most energy from Coal. It is sad that they didn't embrace nuclear like neighboring France.

Decisions like these seldomly are about engineering alone. France didn't embrace nuclear out of the goodness of their hearts - they wanted to become a nuclear power, and needed the infrastructure and specialists and so on to become one (establish study paths, and give those students the prospect of jobs so that they actually choose the new paths etc.). Now that this isn't of strategic importance anymore, France lost…

> Now that this isn't of strategic importance anymore, France lost interest in nuclear plants (just look at what gets built in recent decades in France). Because nuclear power by itself isn't that interesting, mostly because it is so hugely expensive and inflexible.

Half of the problem in France are the green activists & the public to build more and the other half is that the EU is extremely against nuclear and does all of what they can to sabotage the funding.

Re: Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

#82

Post by bjourne »

pydry wrote: post #46

This article seems to be trying to turn a story about unprecedented highs in natural gas prices (mirroring surging post-covid commodity prices all over) into a story about the wind sometimes not blowing. Alternative article : https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/expensive-winter-ahe...

Yeah, lots of spin in that WSJ article. Better article about the price surge: https://www.bruegel.org/2021/09/is-europes-gas-and-electrici... Money quote: "In our view, however, there are more fundamental reasons for high volatility and excessive price spikes. The industry knows the energy system is undergoing a profound and fast transformation. Investments in fossil assets aren’t sustainable long-term. But governments have not yet committed clearly enough to a low-carbon future. So, the energy supply-demand balance in the EU will be volatile depending on how quickly fossil fuels are phased out and green energy is phased in. Clearer commitments from governments to introduce low-carbon energy sources, for example by financing the necessary infrastructure and committing to substantial carbon prices in all sectors, could help move away from this precarious balance. As moving to net-zero will imply ever-growing electricity demand, investors will not have to worry about overinvesting in low-carbon power systems."

Re: Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

#83

Post by UglyToad »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #9
marvin wrote: post #4

It's weird that we have higher late-summer electricity prices that we did mid-winter this year. But all things considered, energy prices do in fact need to be high in order to support faster deployment of renewables and CO2-neutral energy. Sucks for everyone who has marginal incomes, but I'm sure we can make some adjustments to the safety net policies to mitigate that.

> But all things considered, energy prices do in fact need to be high in order to support faster deployment of renewables and CO2-neutral energy. >Sucks for everyone who has marginal incomes, but I'm sure we can make some adjustments to the safety net policies to mitigate that. When people complain about policies that screw the middle class this is exactly the kind of stuff they are talking about. The poors scrape by…

I wonder if something like 'progressive' energy pricing might be a solution here. It's kind of a weird idea but effectively some baseline 'required for living' amount of energy is free and then scales some non-linear amount, e.g. exponentially but not really, as usage increases.

So some grandma with her 3 bar electric heater is paying some token amount for her usage over what is deemed 'baseline' but then crypto miners or industry is effectively subsidising everyone and also incentivised to reduce usage more heavily.

Re: Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

#84

Post by StreamBright »

addicted wrote: post #75
StreamBright wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah the two things are related. You need a battery or a gas turbine if you have windmills in the energy mix. This is why ultimately wind (or any other uncontrollable energy source) is tough to integrate into any energy grid.

Or rather, as is the case in any transition, as you move to the new you still continue to rely on the old, so the entire system continues to fail if the old fails. This stops being a problem once the transition is complete. But that’s to a great extent the definition of a transition.

No, absolutely not.

We are never going to rely purely on wind, since it is uncontrollable.

Re: Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

#85

Post by ben_w »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #64
ben_w wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much as I support transition to green energy as fast as possible, doing so in ways that increase prices create a risk that businesses which care more about money than environment just move to where the energy is cheaper and then you lose both influence over them and employment for those very same marginal income people. I’d rather governments use general taxation to subsidise deployment of PV (or research into superc…

How about go nuclear, that works even during windless nights?

I have no fundamental problem with fission myself, at least as a short-term solution, but (1) I recognise a lot of people are terrified of it so it may be a political non-starter, (2) it is very expensive, and (3) you’d have to complete a few hundred reactors each year to make a reasonable dent in emissions.

For emphasis: this isn’t a “no” — I expect it to still be part of the solution despite all that because all options take time to scale up and diversity is good — just that it isn’t a slam-dunk.

Re: Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

#86

Post by meragrin_ »

28511524 wrote: post #2

“Options include reserve thermal power plants, battery storage or cables for importing electricity from other markets.” Or nuclear. Sad that this isn’t seen as an option any longer.

Nuclear falls under thermal power plants. It would be redundant to simply add it to the list.

Re: Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

#87

Post by acidburnNSA »

tjansen wrote: post #77
acidburnNSA wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current-design nuclear plants themselves are perfectly capable at ramping up and down on demand on the order of 10s of minutes. They usually just choose not to because fuel is a small fraction of their total cost and so the current (and adjustable) markets pressure them into selling as much electricity as possible by staying near 100%.

Once you have them, is there any reason why you would want to ramp it down, other than trying to justify the existence of wind turbines?

Yes. Demand does ramp up and down every day, so you have to follow that. For example, in California the demand varies from about 22 GW to around 30 GW on a typical day.

Re: Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

#88

Post by acidburnNSA »

randomdata wrote: post #71
acidburnNSA wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current-design nuclear plants themselves are perfectly capable at ramping up and down on demand on the order of 10s of minutes. They usually just choose not to because fuel is a small fraction of their total cost and so the current (and adjustable) markets pressure them into selling as much electricity as possible by staying near 100%.

Yes, the economics is why they are not suitable.

Yeah but it if you just made a market that valued the ability to ramp up and down on demand then that could be fixed pretty easily. Some form of capacity market exclusively for low-carbon energy could do it.

https://learn.pjm.com/three-priorities/buying-and-selling-en...

Re: Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

#89

Post by ip26 »

PeterisP wrote: post #74
ip26 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some sense a clean environment and less dangerous future are "luxury goods" The people who can least afford to pay for clean energy etc are the ones who will also be most impacted by heat waves, declining air quality, and natural disasters. So it's a similar "luxury good" as "functioning healthcare".

I agree that it's a similar "luxury good" as "functioning healthcare". And the poorer countries - especially a few decades earlier - were (and are) "choosing" not to buy functioning healthcare before they can afford it - they do devote their limited resources in a balanced manner to various other priorities as well despite paying a price literally with blood and the lives of their children instead of devoting all the…

Yes; however, as with human-caused desertification, sacrificing tomorrow for today ultimately leads all of us to doom, so those of us who aren't in those circumstances have a moral imperative to figure this out :)

Re: Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

#90

Post by littlestymaar »

addicted wrote: post #75
StreamBright wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah the two things are related. You need a battery or a gas turbine if you have windmills in the energy mix. This is why ultimately wind (or any other uncontrollable energy source) is tough to integrate into any energy grid.

Or rather, as is the case in any transition, as you move to the new you still continue to rely on the old, so the entire system continues to fail if the old fails. This stops being a problem once the transition is complete. But that’s to a great extent the definition of a transition.

You cannot go full renewable though, at least not if you power supply comes from wind. Even offshore fields have big periods without productions (because there is not enough wind, but also because there is too much).

I did the calculation for France a few years ago: if you wanted to run on wind + battery, on a typical year you'd need two weeks of storage! Nobody considers this realistic, and gas is expected to cover this part in the end.

Edit: I forgot the link to my model: https://bourrasque.info/images/20180116-moulins-%C3%A0-vent/...

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