How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#81

Post by IncRnd » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 1:42 AM UTC

amatecha wrote: post #49

OneEyedRobot wrote: post #46

What ticks me off no end is the folks who (often successfully) fight against physician assisted suicide. Dementia is the interesting test case, but I think should still be allowed. With all the talk about 'controlling our bodies' in terms of abortion, and I can see both sides of that one, your own life is the one thing you really own. To have that control taken away is the worst kind of insult by the state.

Yeah, I know someone who said for basically their entire adult life "if I ever get like that, just shoot me" and meant it quite seriously. Unfortunately, they indeed spent their last few years gradually degrading in the throes of dementia. Very sad to see, and even more sad to know they would have absolutely hated being left to "rot" in such a way. The only consolation is the person hopefully didn't "know"? Who knows…

People say all sorts of things, but if they don't commit to writing directions down, how are people supposed to know what the person really wanted? Also, someone might say one thing, until death becomes immanent, and then they realize they want something else.

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#82

Post by SamoyedFurFluff » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 1:43 AM UTC

dimitrios1 wrote: post #71

Sebb767 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the core problem is giving out a "free pass" to kill people. Very few people (at least in my experience) think that assisted suicide itself is bad, but the abuse potential is massive. And the action is, by definition, irreversible. Plus, the people that need this are (quite obviously) unable to make this happen on their own. So this comes with the additional moral qualms of whether this is really what the wan…

And we see how this has worked out for abortion. The 0.10% case of either saving a woman's life or in cases of rape and incest as turned into the justification for aborting 189 babies for every 1000 live births -- or in the african american community 487 babies for every 1000 live births. Once you open the flood gates, you will have plenty who kill themselves who otherwise wouldn't with just a little bit of extra sup…

Do you have citations for the numbers you provided? Thanks! (I’m genuinely asking because it never occurred to me that you can track the amount of a private medical procedures occurrence across states and stuff…)

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#83

Post by WalterBright » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 1:43 AM UTC

chucksmash wrote: post #57

WalterBright wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, my sister was told to put her affairs in order. She did the major surgery and the chemo, and just passed 10 years cancer free. Odds of her outcome were something like 5%. She's well aware of how lucky she is.

Posted article doesn't seem to be accessible right now so apologies if I'm repeating something it says, I couldn't RTFA. "Being Mortal" by Atul Gawande talks about this. He mentions Stephen Gould's essay, "The Median Isn't The Message," in which Gould says: > For most situations, however, I prefer the more martial view that death is the ultimate enemy—and I find nothing reproachable in those who rage mightily against…

The family and her all realize how lucky she is to be alive today. I don't disagree with people who make the choice to just do palliative care, and I don't disagree with those who choose to fight.

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#84

Post by burnished » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 1:43 AM UTC

adventured wrote: post #65

Johnny555 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I don't usually comment on downvotes, my guess is that the downvotes are because your question can come off as being insensitive. After someone tells you about the tragic death of both of his parents, maybe don't start a guessing game of what his mother died of even if your loved one died of that same disease.

The barrage of downvotes were typical HN assuming the worst (mindless insensitivity) rather than giving a benefit of the doubt about my intent. This, from HN's guidelines: Assume good faith. You won't see much of that on HN in my very long experience here. People so often jump right to assuming the worst, which is why that guideline exists. The assumption was that I was being insensitive, when the actuality was that…

>>I could have structured what I said better

I think this is the take-away. I'm sorry for your loss, and I suspect that it has made this topic much closer and realer for you than many other people. Whereas we are all familiar with insensitive assholes.

It can be challenging to know how to best approach a situation where you think some one is being rude, without also opening yourself up for blame (or verbal abuse), in a calm and constructive manner. Even assuming good faith it would be very easy to see your original un-edited remark as some one curiously gawking at another person's tragedy.

I can see that this situation is upsetting for you. It might help to reframe this by recognizing that calm, thoughtful, and articulate communication is difficult.

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#85

Post by IncRnd » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 1:48 AM UTC

MBCook wrote: post #69

Wasn’t this one of the things the “death panels” (as so expertly branded by Republicans) were supposed to help with? Helping people on Medicare decide on how they wanted to approach these kind of issues and what they wanted for advanced directives? Unfortunately so much of this is decided at the last minute as people are terrified or just desperate for any lifeline no matter the consequences. Choices that, had they m…

> Wasn’t this one of the things the “death panels” (as so expertly branded by Republicans) were supposed to help with? Helping people on Medicare decide on how they wanted to approach these kind of issues and what they wanted for advanced directives?

No. A death panel does not decide when someone is to die but when treatment is to be stopped due to mounting costs, regardless of the wishes of the patient.

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#86

Post by symlinkk » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 1:48 AM UTC

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #82

dimitrios1 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And we see how this has worked out for abortion. The 0.10% case of either saving a woman's life or in cases of rape and incest as turned into the justification for aborting 189 babies for every 1000 live births -- or in the african american community 487 babies for every 1000 live births. Once you open the flood gates, you will have plenty who kill themselves who otherwise wouldn't with just a little bit of extra sup…

Do you have citations for the numbers you provided? Thanks! (I’m genuinely asking because it never occurred to me that you can track the amount of a private medical procedures occurrence across states and stuff…)

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/ss/pdfs/ss6907a1-H.pdf

Although the numbers are a bit different here, maybe he’s referencing a newer data set. Still it’s shocking:

> non-Hispanic Black women had the highest abortion rate (21.2 abortions per 1,000 women) and ratio (335 abortions per 1,000 live births)

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#87

Post by dimitrios1 » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 1:49 AM UTC

ehnto wrote: post #79

dimitrios1 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And we see how this has worked out for abortion. The 0.10% case of either saving a woman's life or in cases of rape and incest as turned into the justification for aborting 189 babies for every 1000 live births -- or in the african american community 487 babies for every 1000 live births. Once you open the flood gates, you will have plenty who kill themselves who otherwise wouldn't with just a little bit of extra sup…

There are other reasons people want to get abortions, such as knowing they can't provide for the child or give them a safe/stable household. Adoption is rare, and the foster system in most countries absolutely ruins kids. So those aren't good alternatives.

This goes along with my thesis that if given the proper support, we would avoid the majority of them.

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#88

Post by pstuart » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 1:50 AM UTC

dimitrios1 wrote: post #71

Sebb767 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the core problem is giving out a "free pass" to kill people. Very few people (at least in my experience) think that assisted suicide itself is bad, but the abuse potential is massive. And the action is, by definition, irreversible. Plus, the people that need this are (quite obviously) unable to make this happen on their own. So this comes with the additional moral qualms of whether this is really what the wan…

And we see how this has worked out for abortion. The 0.10% case of either saving a woman's life or in cases of rape and incest as turned into the justification for aborting 189 babies for every 1000 live births -- or in the african american community 487 babies for every 1000 live births. Once you open the flood gates, you will have plenty who kill themselves who otherwise wouldn't with just a little bit of extra sup…

> kill themselves

Many would disagree with that characterization.

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#89

Post by dennis_jeeves » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 1:51 AM UTC

spywaregorilla wrote: post #70

pochekailov wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood people who defend death If there is a tiger chasing you, wouldn't you try to escape or fight? Or just give up and let the tiger eat you? It is natural, tiger also want to eat, right?

If your mental image of people who support the notion of death is people who are just apathetically suicidal, then you're missing the point.

>If your mental image of people who support the notion of death is people who are just apathetically suicidal, then you're missing the point.

It is indeed what I think of most people, what point have I missed?

Re: How Doctors die. It’s not like the rest of us (2016)

#90

Post by dimitrios1 » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 1:52 AM UTC

pstuart wrote: post #88

dimitrios1 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And we see how this has worked out for abortion. The 0.10% case of either saving a woman's life or in cases of rape and incest as turned into the justification for aborting 189 babies for every 1000 live births -- or in the african american community 487 babies for every 1000 live births. Once you open the flood gates, you will have plenty who kill themselves who otherwise wouldn't with just a little bit of extra sup…

> kill themselves Many would disagree with that characterization.

potato potatoe -- it's ending a life.