Bitcoin’s first day as El Salvador’s legal tender • Hacker News Board

Re: Bitcoin’s first day as El Salvador’s legal tender

#81

Post by ninetenfour » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 2:59 PM UTC

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #77

UncleMeat wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it very funny that BTC advocates bring this up all the time, yet inflation of USD is considered to be an enormous threat. Surely both of these things cannot be true.

I am not advocate for Bitcoin, but I assume prices in BTC would raise with inflation like any other currency

BTC is designed to be highly limited in supply and thus all prices denominated in BTC should drop over time by design of the currency. Everything else in society, if it was all on BTC, would do similarly. Basically your salary this year should be smaller than it was last year but your buying power should be similar.

This encourages people to hold BTC because its relative value increases over time. Thus BTC by being deflationary encourages holding and not spending. It will lead to a less dynamic economy than if we had an inflationary currency which encouraged spending/investment.

Re: Bitcoin’s first day as El Salvador’s legal tender

#82

Post by beervirus » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 3:18 PM UTC

oleganza wrote: post #75

beervirus wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correction relative to what fundamental value? And what’s the difference between a speculative high and the normal price?

Well, fundamental value is well over >$8T which is a rough estimate of the gold's monetization (because BTC is superior to gold in every respect as a store-of-value). BTC still has to climb 10x till there and all the dips on the way are corrections.

> BTC is superior to gold in every respect as a store-of-value)

Maybe in some respects, but every respect? Is it really beneficial for a store of value to have wild fluctuations in its value on a timescale of days/weeks?

Re: Bitcoin’s first day as El Salvador’s legal tender

#83

Post by chucksta » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 4:45 PM UTC

ninetenfour wrote: post #80

bufferoverflow wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It doesn't meet the requirements of a good currency Aaand you just moved the goal posts. Notice how you switched your argument from "currency" to "good currency". So dishonest.

> Aaand you just moved the goal posts. Notice how you switched your argument from "currency" to "good currency". So dishonest. I think you want a binary world where things are either A or B and not somewhere in between. BTC is being used as a currency in El Salvador and it is government mandated as a currency. Thus it is a currency by that definition. But my argument is that it isn't a good currency based on its prop…

then you used bad language

>Which is why BTC is an asset and not a currency.

Is a pretty straight forward sentence

Re: Bitcoin’s first day as El Salvador’s legal tender

#84

Post by em3rgent0rdr » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 5:13 PM UTC

If taxpayers can pay taxes in bitcoin, then there is less need to convert to a fiat currency intermediary when buying and selling goods and services with bitcoin. That might add stability to BTC's value.

Re: Bitcoin’s first day as El Salvador’s legal tender

#85

Post by ninetenfour » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 6:20 PM UTC

chucksta wrote: post #83

ninetenfour wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Aaand you just moved the goal posts. Notice how you switched your argument from "currency" to "good currency". So dishonest. I think you want a binary world where things are either A or B and not somewhere in between. BTC is being used as a currency in El Salvador and it is government mandated as a currency. Thus it is a currency by that definition. But my argument is that it isn't a good currency based on its prop…

then you used bad language >Which is why BTC is an asset and not a currency. Is a pretty straight forward sentence

Are you using BTC as a currency? What was the last thing you bought using BTC directly?

Does it meet the 10 characteristics here?https://simplicable.com/new/money

I think that few are using BTC as a currency because it doesn't make sense as a currency, rather 99.9% of people are using it as a speculative investment asset.

Re: Bitcoin’s first day as El Salvador’s legal tender

#86

Post by grey-area » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 6:31 PM UTC

bufferoverflow wrote: post #68

grey-area wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s just another reason (along with all the others) it should never be imposed as a currency, particularly in a country with lots of people living near the poverty line. Imagine leaving home not sure if you can afford the bus ride to work or food to eat because of volatility.

I agree that people shouldn't be forced to use any currency, and should be able to choose freely. The reality is, most countries force you to use the currency they issue. The worse reality is, all of them are inflationary by design. Cryptocurrencies give you a deflationary option. Don't like it? Don't use it. I think cryptocurrencies are the future, and we will see more and more stores accepting them, and the convers…

As a retailer why would you accept payment in a currency with this sort of daily volatility of 10%, which doesn’t even have instant confirmation (!!??), has slow transactions, no rollback, no fraud detection or insurance and has high fees?

As a customer why would you make payment in a currency with high fees, poor ux, slow transactions and just enough anonymity to make it perfect for scammers?

As a payment processor why would you touch this currency with a barge-pole given the above problems?

Cryptocurrency isn’t the future of currency or payments, and bitcoin in particular is solving the wrong problems, badly.

Re: Bitcoin’s first day as El Salvador’s legal tender

#87

Post by chucksta » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 7:05 PM UTC

ninetenfour wrote: post #85

chucksta wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

then you used bad language >Which is why BTC is an asset and not a currency. Is a pretty straight forward sentence

Are you using BTC as a currency? What was the last thing you bought using BTC directly? Does it meet the 10 characteristics here? https://simplicable.com/new/money I think that few are using BTC as a currency because it doesn't make sense as a currency, rather 99.9% of people are using it as a speculative investment asset.

I don't have much to add about it being a currency or not, just that you aren't being very clear. One moment you say its not, then the next it is, just not a good one, the next it's not again. And "not a good one", objectively you could lump just about anything into

I'm under the belief that if it can be locally commonly exchanged for goods or services is a currency. If its gold, cash, btc, or bottle caps. If its a good form of currency or not is a completely different question

Re: Bitcoin’s first day as El Salvador’s legal tender

#88

Post by rsynnott » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 7:06 PM UTC

j_barbossa wrote: post #4

One argument critics bring in I don't understand is that Bitcoin is too volatile to be a currency. If a zoned market solely accept Bitcoin and a good costs say 1 BTC, why does it matter if the BTC-to-USD price is increasing or decreasing? For the zoned market it's still 1 BTC for said good.

Unless the market is an autarky, it's a problem. Say you're a company that buys a bunch of components, many from overseas, assembles a widget from them, and sells it at a 5% margin. You're probably ordering your components ahead of time, because that's how it's done. At that point, significant volatility becomes a big problem.

Re: Bitcoin’s first day as El Salvador’s legal tender

#89

Post by q1w2 » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 7:56 PM UTC

ninetenfour wrote: post #25

bufferoverflow wrote: post #8

It's normal BTC behavior, BTC spikes up and goes down all the time. 10-15% per day moves happen regularly. Open the price chart and look at it.

Which is why BTC is an asset and not a currency. Currencies need stability of value so that everyone doesn't have to update their prices ever few hours: https://simplicable.com/new/money But maybe in the new world, all prices can be in digital and thus ever changing?

If it's not a good currency, then it's not much of an asset either.

Re: Bitcoin’s first day as El Salvador’s legal tender

#90

Post by dariusj18 » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 7:58 PM UTC

sofixa wrote: post #65

neither_color wrote: post #62

As someone who set up a Chivo wallet from outside of El Salvador last night, I knew these comments were going to be highly negative and schadenfreude-ic. I'm going to ignore all of it and dive right into the experience of the app itself. Chivo's servers went offline temporarily in the morning in order to fix some bugs and add more capacity, according to tweets from the president. As far as major software product laun…

> El Salvador has a national ID called a DUI (Documento Unico de Identidad). When you first open the app, you type in your ID number and date of birth. Then you scan the front of your DUI card, the back, and take a selfie. You wait a bit for it to validate and then you're done. It knows your name already, there is no email/account registration, there are no address forms or weird credit check challenge questions to f…

> The reluctance by Americans for anything resembling that is baffling.

It's not that baffling. At any time 50% of Americans believe the other 50% would round them up and gas them given the opportunity.