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Unifying iPadOS and macOS

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Re: Unifying iPadOS and macOS

#81

Post by mark_l_watson »

jbluepolarbear wrote: post #58
mark_l_watson wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Full app development and selling apps in the App Store is close to being released on the iPad. You can use SwiftUI right now in Playgrounds, but Apple has not released app generating functionality yet. It is a funny feeling working on the same Playground project on both an iPad and MacBook, but it works. The code for reading data files is a bit different, but the iPad dev experience will get better.

Playground isn’t close to full app development; it’s very powerful tool, but I don’t see many professionals jumping to build on that. Full app development is when Xcode and instruments are available.

Well, let's wait and see. Apple wants it to be easy for semi-technical people to write apps.

Re: Unifying iPadOS and macOS

#82

Post by vladvasiliu »

fallenhitokiri wrote: post #44
flohofwoe wrote: post #4

It's not about the touch screen, the UI, the hardware or "casual" vs "professional" users, but simply about the ability to create(!) and combine small specialized tools into something that's bigger than the sum of its parts. The "walled garden app ecosystem" is exceptionally bad for this, and the UNIX shell is exceptionally good, but both are extremes. It's hard to imagine how a UNIX-like flexibility can be achieved…

This is IMHO a really good point. Somewhere in between App Groups, Share Extensions and custom URL schemes I really hoped at some point we would see a way to make this happen. My wife is currently using Affinity and Adobe products to work on illustrations. It works mostly the same for her as on her Mac. She does not care about small, specialised tools, she wants one app that does everything she needs. The iPad is doi…

> I am not sure how many users (outside of the ones who got used to it) want UNIX-like flexibility vs "give me an app that does everything I need". If the later group keeps getting larger the walled garden approach to apps might actually work.

I think this is crux of the matter. Even outside the Apple ecosystem I see a tendency in people to not think about composing multiple tools but to look for an app that does everything.

I'm talking about my colleagues, working in IT, but in a Windows environment.

And on Windows there's PowerShell, which, although slow and to me not as flexible as bash, still allows one to do quite a lot of things. But people seem to see using it as a last resort, when there's absolutely no way of doing what they want by clicking around some window.

Re: Unifying iPadOS and macOS

#83

Post by tomjen3 »

flohofwoe wrote: post #4

It's not about the touch screen, the UI, the hardware or "casual" vs "professional" users, but simply about the ability to create(!) and combine small specialized tools into something that's bigger than the sum of its parts. The "walled garden app ecosystem" is exceptionally bad for this, and the UNIX shell is exceptionally good, but both are extremes. It's hard to imagine how a UNIX-like flexibility can be achieved…

The Unix shell was exceptionally good for its time. Powershell, IMHO, go it right by not sending strings but objects around. This gets you around the issue of spaces and means you can send more than one value.

I haven't been able to play with the shortcuts functionality because I don't have an iPhone, but if it is what I think it is it, it is a powerful tool to do things with.

We shouldn't fail to acknowledge that most, if not all, spend more time consuming than creating.

Then you have the group that isn't served with something as powerful as a real computer. My grandparents would be much better served with an iPad instead of a computer, since all they need is a browser and a system to do video calls.

Re: Unifying iPadOS and macOS

#84

Post by howaboutnope »

fallenhitokiri wrote: post #44
flohofwoe wrote: post #4

It's not about the touch screen, the UI, the hardware or "casual" vs "professional" users, but simply about the ability to create(!) and combine small specialized tools into something that's bigger than the sum of its parts. The "walled garden app ecosystem" is exceptionally bad for this, and the UNIX shell is exceptionally good, but both are extremes. It's hard to imagine how a UNIX-like flexibility can be achieved…

This is IMHO a really good point. Somewhere in between App Groups, Share Extensions and custom URL schemes I really hoped at some point we would see a way to make this happen. My wife is currently using Affinity and Adobe products to work on illustrations. It works mostly the same for her as on her Mac. She does not care about small, specialised tools, she wants one app that does everything she needs. The iPad is doi…

But for anything non-trivial, that app that does everything person A needs doesn't do what person B needs, and vice versa. It mostly does what person C needs, who is a whiteboard made subset of the most used features and doesn't match anyone.

It's not just UNIX-like flexibility, it's human uniqueness, and the uniqueness of the tasks they perform and the ideas they have. It's also the difference between owning and knowing how to use a tool, versus renting someone to do it for you who might help you today, but could rob or hurt you tomorrow.

Just consider how we spend decades to teach new humans to read and write as well as they can learn it, versus just giving them a bunch of emoticons to signal when they're hungry or sleepy or bored. Because we expect them to become full peers, and architects of their world, responsible for the next generation, not just consumers picking options others prepared for them. And we don't care if they want that, because we know what they don't know, yet. We base our judgement on the information we have, not the information they lack.

Making an exception for computer literacy just because it is hard (as if language and reading and writing aren't until you get used to them) set us on a terrible path.

Re: Unifying iPadOS and macOS

#85

Post by tomjen3 »

defaulty wrote: post #2

As a power user on MacOS, I dread the merge. I can only suspect that MacOS becomes less power-user friendly in the name of "intuitiveness". I hope I am proven wrong

I agree. My personal plan is to ride it out and then maybe find a machine that works well with Linux. I can't go back to Windows unless MS rereleases Win7. Win10 is crap and win11 appears to be more of the same kind (i.e even worse).

More to the point, this seems to be a general trend: we have so much better technology by now, but a worse society. That is something I don't know how to get out of.

Re: Unifying iPadOS and macOS

#86

Post by dagmx »

mhuffman wrote: post #28
scoopertrooper wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a natural limit to what may be achieved with a low/no code tool. Kids might be able to drag a few elements on screen to create charts and games, but that sort of work doesn't really advance the field.

>There's a natural limit to what may be achieved with low/no code tool. Kids might be able to drag a few elements on screen to create charts and games, but that sort of work doesn't really advance the field. Ahhh, who said the point in the future would be to advance the field? That is how we think. Future generations might be content with a few "programming geniuses" and everyone else making simplistic apps for work…

Every generation has been okay with having multiple tiers of skillsets and domains.

That's just natural. Even in the early days of computing, you'd definitely have people split between low level and high level code.

The fact is, everytime new technology comes along that reduces the barrier of entry, you're going to have some people who will be lower level developers and many who will be high level due to being able to do things more easily.

You can apply this to most consumer friendly domains.

Re: Unifying iPadOS and macOS

#87

Post by dagmx »

flohofwoe wrote: post #49
mhuffman wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is bad for IT. Maybe for how we do IT. But consider the future where 99% of apps are developed on a tablet or phone (for a tablet or phone) using a cloud web interface with mostly low-code or no-code widget drag and drops.

"Low code" and "no code" solutions have existed for as long as computers exist (for instance to automate tasks, author shaders, or describe simple gameplay logic), yet they were always specialized niche solutions and never replaced "freestyle coding". If such a thing has been tried over and over again for half a century but hasn't had a breakthrough and replaced the alternatives I think it's likely that this also won…

I feel like many people forget how many "no-code" solutions have existed over the decades. It's been the dream that so many people have chased.

The solutions get better over time, but the issue is the people who can code don't consider them as anything more than toys, while the ones who are empowered by them, now make things they couldn't before.

Re: Unifying iPadOS and macOS

#88

Post by amelius »

flohofwoe wrote: post #4

It's not about the touch screen, the UI, the hardware or "casual" vs "professional" users, but simply about the ability to create(!) and combine small specialized tools into something that's bigger than the sum of its parts. The "walled garden app ecosystem" is exceptionally bad for this, and the UNIX shell is exceptionally good, but both are extremes. It's hard to imagine how a UNIX-like flexibility can be achieved…

iOS is also great as a software copy protection scheme. You can't have that in an open OS without compromises.

Re: Unifying iPadOS and macOS

#89

Post by dagmx »

lostgame wrote: post #35
FractalHQ wrote: post #29

I bought an iPad Pro recently, and I hate the fact that I can’t run any of my favorite macOS apps on it despite the fact that the hardware is more than capable. And no web browsers / browser extensions / PWAs? It feels like a toy. Very disappointing.

Return it and get a MacBook for around the same price. I don’t understand the point of iPad Pros being so powerful when they can’t - y’know - run even Apple’s own Pro software. (Final Cut Pro, Logic Pro) They’re mind-numbingly expensive toys, for sure.

They make a lot of sense for creatives.

ProCreate, various image editing tools, even video editing... I know a lot of talented professionals who've switched over to iPad Pros for most of their work except 3D.

A large part of that is the Apple Pencil and very low latency, but they appreciate every spec bump because it does help their type of work out.

Re: Unifying iPadOS and macOS

#90

Post by walterbell »

howaboutnope wrote: post #84
fallenhitokiri wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is IMHO a really good point. Somewhere in between App Groups, Share Extensions and custom URL schemes I really hoped at some point we would see a way to make this happen. My wife is currently using Affinity and Adobe products to work on illustrations. It works mostly the same for her as on her Mac. She does not care about small, specialised tools, she wants one app that does everything she needs. The iPad is doi…

But for anything non-trivial, that app that does everything person A needs doesn't do what person B needs, and vice versa. It mostly does what person C needs, who is a whiteboard made subset of the most used features and doesn't match anyone. It's not just UNIX-like flexibility, it's human uniqueness, and the uniqueness of the tasks they perform and the ideas they have. It's also the difference between owning and kno…

> Just consider how we spend decades to teach new humans to read and write as well as they can learn it, versus just giving them a bunch of emoticons to signal when they're hungry or sleepy or bored. Because we expect them to become full peers, and architects of their world, responsible for the next generation, not just consumers picking options others prepared for them.

Thanks for this summary of the case for general purpose computing.

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