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MacType: Better Font Rendering for Windows

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Re: MacType: Better Font Rendering for Windows

#81

Post by Firehawke »

crazygringo wrote: post #7

It's bizarre that neither the README nor the associated minimal site explains what it does in detail, with screenshots or anything. I'm assuming this is a modern version of GDI++, which a decade ago brought Mac-style font rendering to Windows, but stopped being maintained a while ago. For people who aren't aware of the difference, it's essentially that Windows uses heavy font hinting to try to align character strokes…

This was exactly what irritated me and sent me over to this thread-- there's basically no comparison shots to get an idea of how this should look.

For something that's so visual, you really REALLY need to draw the eyes to something that shows why you need to download it.

Re: MacType: Better Font Rendering for Windows

#82

Post by sossles »

Firehawke wrote: post #81
crazygringo wrote: post #7

It's bizarre that neither the README nor the associated minimal site explains what it does in detail, with screenshots or anything. I'm assuming this is a modern version of GDI++, which a decade ago brought Mac-style font rendering to Windows, but stopped being maintained a while ago. For people who aren't aware of the difference, it's essentially that Windows uses heavy font hinting to try to align character strokes…

This was exactly what irritated me and sent me over to this thread-- there's basically no comparison shots to get an idea of how this should look. For something that's so visual, you really REALLY need to draw the eyes to something that shows why you need to download it.

Same here. The website is bizarrely uninformative. A Windows logo, but it's called MacType with a Mac-style download button, with zero explanation as to what the product actually does. The tagline "the way texts should be" is terrible English and it looks blurry on my screen, so the idea that this is some kind of improved font rendering is undermined.

Re: MacType: Better Font Rendering for Windows

#83

Post by kristianp »

hsn915 wrote: post #54
crazygringo wrote: post #7

It's bizarre that neither the README nor the associated minimal site explains what it does in detail, with screenshots or anything. I'm assuming this is a modern version of GDI++, which a decade ago brought Mac-style font rendering to Windows, but stopped being maintained a while ago. For people who aren't aware of the difference, it's essentially that Windows uses heavy font hinting to try to align character strokes…

I never understood _why_ but text rendering on windows has always looked like garbage to me. It was obviously not the screen resolution or anything, because you can run a linux vm (say, on virtualbox) and the text rendering inside the VM will look much better than the text in windows. > Nobody's "right", it's just personal preference. I don't think that's true. macos is clearly better.

I haven't used MacOS recently, but my feeling on Windows font rendering is that it makes the fonts look too blurry. Once you get to a reasonable DPI it gets better, but my distaste with it started on a fairly low dpi, starting with about windows 7 (I didn't use Vista). Before then the fonts used didn't try too hard to use aliasing, and hence had sharp, single-pixel lines, which are much more satisfying to look at.

Re: MacType: Better Font Rendering for Windows

#84

Post by navjack27 »

breakfastduck wrote: post #67
ascom wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another possibility is that macOS actually does proper color management throughout the entire OS - the Windows shell/desktop is simply not color managed and it's especially irritating when you have a wide color gamut monitor.

Another of the staggering deficiencies for windows. Right next to audio management. Because audio drivers and colour management aren't important ofc....

Sure uh huh. Mac is great when I want to open up GarageBand on my M1 Mac Mini that's connected to my TV over HDMI. It yells at me to change the sample rate to 44.1. I can't do that there is no way to do that. I also can not control the volume using keyboard volume or system OS volume. Mac OS is great! Also the HDR is questionable unless you are using an Apple display which I am not.

Edit: basically what I'm getting at here is one is not better than the other and one is not worse than the other every single OS has quirks and honestly you should just be running one of everything in your house if you need it. Make sure to always have an up-to-date latest Mac and run WSL 2 in Windows 10 or 11.

Re: MacType: Better Font Rendering for Windows

#85

Post by Macha »

breakfastduck wrote: post #67
ascom wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another possibility is that macOS actually does proper color management throughout the entire OS - the Windows shell/desktop is simply not color managed and it's especially irritating when you have a wide color gamut monitor.

Another of the staggering deficiencies for windows. Right next to audio management. Because audio drivers and colour management aren't important ofc....

The lack of an OS level volume mixer is one of my biggest day to day frustrations with OS X. Linux is really the gold standard for me though, allowing me to shunt applications around across audio devices on a per app basis when most don't include an output selector.

Re: MacType: Better Font Rendering for Windows

#86

Post by girvo »

mastazi wrote: post #74
hsn915 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood _why_ but text rendering on windows has always looked like garbage to me. It was obviously not the screen resolution or anything, because you can run a linux vm (say, on virtualbox) and the text rendering inside the VM will look much better than the text in windows. > Nobody's "right", it's just personal preference. I don't think that's true. macos is clearly better.

> macos is clearly better. I disagree. Yes I do prefer MacOS on high DPI screens but, at low DPI, I prefer Windows. It's about how the edges of characters look, as I was saying here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28031314

Which is a fair enough point, but considering the only screens I own are high DPI, MacType is quite interesting to me

Re: MacType: Better Font Rendering for Windows

#87

Post by bruhsfx2 »

Good to see MacType discussed here.

This tool is more important in Chinese/Japanese/Korean environment as CJK glyphs have more strokes per character as compared to Latin languages. Windows's font rendering tends to fit glyph strokes into pixels (tint).

On a low DPI settings (On a higher DPI settings (>130), IMO under normal font sizes (>=10pt) the font has enough pixel realestate to behave like what it was designed. The antialiasing could do its job without relying the heavily hinted result.

Here are some comparisons.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EhoCr9GUYAAjzMG?format=webp Left: AppleWin (Safari for Windows) | Right: Chromium | 12px PingFang SC on 200% system scale As you can clearly see, Apple's font rendering makes every glyph clear enough while ensuring every stroke has the same weight, while Chromium, relying on Windows's font rendering makes the font jagged (stroke width varies), baseline not level (遵守 on the 3rd last line, component 辶's bottom is way up)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJUJZL8UYAAC7sC?format=webp&name... Left: AppleWin | Right: Chromium | 15px MS Gothic on 200% system scale MS Gothic has a very large character design, but on the first line of paragraph, 口 from "口周辺" is not reaching the the height it supposed to do, because of Window's approach of fitting that stroke into a line of pixels. And Windows makes the font thinner. This approach apparently ruined every diagonal strokes like 丿 and 丶, making those strokes even fainter.

I have another example of Microsoft Yahei font being drastically better on 200% with MacType but I couldn't find it at the moment.

It's suffice to say that MacType will recovered the font rendering for Windows in 200% scale. However, in 100% scale, it provides fixes when Windows messed up with fonts in some cases when it purposefully fit the strokes into pixels.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DrJStIiU0AA01uT?format=webp&name... Safari for Windows, 100% scale https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DrJStMyV4AE_b6f?format=webp&name... Vivaldi, 100% scale Font rendered on Vivaldi is thin, not equal stroke width, with jagged curves. It's miles better on Safari on Windows. Just look at the "产品" on the bottom left, Windows makes the upper 口 in the 品 painfully short in height.

While i appreciate Windows's effort to make glyphs more legible for lower pixel density displays, but at least provide a toggle to turn it off as it literally ruins everything else. Fonts MS used in every Office/Windows/even Windows Terminal showcase video are not hinted font yet the glyphs look pretty legible, and even gorgeous (if you appreciate the curves of Segeo UI) in a 4:2:0 subsampled video, animated, yet average Windows users can't find a way to experience this on daily basis without MacType.

Re: MacType: Better Font Rendering for Windows

#88

Post by ganghacker »

hsn915 wrote: post #54
crazygringo wrote: post #7

It's bizarre that neither the README nor the associated minimal site explains what it does in detail, with screenshots or anything. I'm assuming this is a modern version of GDI++, which a decade ago brought Mac-style font rendering to Windows, but stopped being maintained a while ago. For people who aren't aware of the difference, it's essentially that Windows uses heavy font hinting to try to align character strokes…

I never understood _why_ but text rendering on windows has always looked like garbage to me. It was obviously not the screen resolution or anything, because you can run a linux vm (say, on virtualbox) and the text rendering inside the VM will look much better than the text in windows. > Nobody's "right", it's just personal preference. I don't think that's true. macos is clearly better.

> macos is clearly better

Wow, truly a member of hn intelligentsia to claim that what I like must be liked by everyone.

Your comment is useless, u offer nothing objective, no facts.

Re: MacType: Better Font Rendering for Windows

#90

Post by hsn915 »

ganghacker wrote: post #88
hsn915 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood _why_ but text rendering on windows has always looked like garbage to me. It was obviously not the screen resolution or anything, because you can run a linux vm (say, on virtualbox) and the text rendering inside the VM will look much better than the text in windows. > Nobody's "right", it's just personal preference. I don't think that's true. macos is clearly better.

> macos is clearly better Wow, truly a member of hn intelligentsia to claim that what I like must be liked by everyone. Your comment is useless, u offer nothing objective, no facts.

I never said it must be liked by every one. I said it's better.

Yes aesthetics are somewhat subjective but that does not mean there's no good answer to what is more aesthetically pleasing. A small minority of people will inevitably disagree. But this does not invalidate the premise.

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