First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers • Hacker News Board

Re: First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers

#81

Post by huherto » Mon, Jul 25, 2011, 2:32 PM UTC

kapy wrote: post #24

mikeryan wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Philosophy doesn't answer the question, it teaches you which questions to ask.

"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -Picasso First time I saw that quotation, I thought it showed an amusing lack of understanding. Now I see the point; we need to know what questions need asking before we can begin to build anything of value in response.

It is so ambiguous that it each person can interpret it in a different way and it looks so deep and thoughtful. Coming from Picasso I would imagine he may have been thinking "...They can only give you answers, but no create beautiful things"

Re: First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers

#82

Post by sophacles » Mon, Jul 25, 2011, 2:56 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #80

sophacles wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok let's try approaching this a different way for a moment. If all of that $1.8M in your example went to the electron microscope, and there was no overhead, how would any of the following be funded: - the building housing the scope? - The electricity used by the scope (non-negligible in this case) - The staff to run it - training to use it - maintenece - hr/legal/accounting services regarding the grant itself? Furhte…

Of the items you mentioned, only rent, electricity and legal/accounting services pay are paid for by overhead. HR services are charged directly to the grant - if a grad student receives $20k in salary (+ health benefits), the university charges about $50k to the grant. The staff to run the machine, training and maintenance are not paid for out of overhead. Also, PIs need to do their own grant accounting.

That depends on the university then. Some places do in fact pay staff from general college funds (aka the result of overhead). Either way, you are completely and utterly ignoring my question: How do you propose handling this things other than the overhead method, and how do you expect to find a way to do so cheaper than than a university, given that all other entities which can meet the governments requirements for getting grant charge so very much more?

Re: First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers

#83

Post by yummyfajitas » Mon, Jul 25, 2011, 3:54 PM UTC

sophacles wrote: post #82

yummyfajitas wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of the items you mentioned, only rent, electricity and legal/accounting services pay are paid for by overhead. HR services are charged directly to the grant - if a grad student receives $20k in salary (+ health benefits), the university charges about $50k to the grant. The staff to run the machine, training and maintenance are not paid for out of overhead. Also, PIs need to do their own grant accounting.

That depends on the university then. Some places do in fact pay staff from general college funds (aka the result of overhead). Either way, you are completely and utterly ignoring my question: How do you propose handling this things other than the overhead method, and how do you expect to find a way to do so cheaper than than a university, given that all other entities which can meet the governments requirements for g…

...how do you expect to find a way to do so cheaper than than a university, given that all other entities which can meet the governments requirements for getting grant charge so very much more?

I'd relax the government's requirements and allow more entities (including individual PIs) to get grants.

I'd also demand that universities itemize their overhead costs. Every commercial property manager successfully itemizes the cost of a building, electricity and cleaning services. Every outsourced HR agency itemizes employee payroll costs.

As a taxpayer, I'd like the government to properly audit these services and bar any universities which overcharge from getting further grants.

Re: First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers

#84

Post by sophacles » Mon, Jul 25, 2011, 4:20 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #83

sophacles wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That depends on the university then. Some places do in fact pay staff from general college funds (aka the result of overhead). Either way, you are completely and utterly ignoring my question: How do you propose handling this things other than the overhead method, and how do you expect to find a way to do so cheaper than than a university, given that all other entities which can meet the governments requirements for g…

...how do you expect to find a way to do so cheaper than than a university, given that all other entities which can meet the governments requirements for getting grant charge so very much more? I'd relax the government's requirements and allow more entities (including individual PIs) to get grants. I'd also demand that universities itemize their overhead costs. Every commercial property manager successfully itemizes…

You know that all the public universities already do this right? The books, including salaries are 100% public in many states for (at least for the state universities). Why do you think they are so much cheaper than the companies and Private PIs that do get grants? (BTW that thing you wish for exists: look at SWRI for example). The only requirement to get grants is the ability to convince the grantors that you can do the work more effectively than the other applicants.

Re: First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers

#85

Post by omarchowdhury » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 3:38 PM UTC

ristretto wrote: post #77

omarchowdhury wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consciousness sure is a fundamental property of your universe.

The problem is some philosophers go so far as to suggest that consciousness is a fundamental property of the physical world that is only "detected" by brains, or that consciousness is in principle unexplainable. Imho, that's just rubbish. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness

It definitely is rubbish if you are grounded in physicalism.