Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly • Hacker News Board

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#81

Post by prepend » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 12:25 AM UTC

fcaballe wrote: post #37

prepend wrote: post #23

Isn’t this problem more easily solved by more access to credit cards? It seems like the examples where an advance is needed would be more easily, and even cheaply, solved by using a credit card and repaying on payday. There are instant approval credit cards and low credit limit cards. And credit cards even allow cash advances at 20-30% annually. So, for the example with the gas station customer, using a credit card a…

Almost none low income workers have access to a zero-rate credit card with credit limit available and zero annual fees. Besides that unpaid balance carries interest. The idea is to de-risk by bringing their employers into the equation :)

It doesn’t need to be zero-rate as even a standard rate 15-20% card would be cheaper than this product, right?

If credit cards are payed without carrying a balance they are all 0%. So that’s at least 25-55 days depending on when the charge is made.

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#82

Post by prepend » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 12:27 AM UTC

jklein11 wrote: post #26

jkhdigital wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference, I think, is that the credit card model is an unsecured loan while Payflow seems more like receivables financing. Big difference in the perceived risk exposure.

Yes I think that is what is most confusing to me about why payday loans are so much more expensive. The creditors are taking on less risk than with credit cards and yet the return is greater.

The rates are typically high because they are loans of last resort and people still default. Typically people, in the US at least, have absolutely terrible credit and no one will extend to them.

And while there are exceptions, typically people with horrible credit are likely to continue the cycle.

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#83

Post by zo1 » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 1:24 AM UTC

gotostatement wrote: post #69

qnsi wrote: post #30

I worked at a company that was working on this. I left because of ethical reasons. >Workers living from pay check to pay check have traditionally been vulnerable to exploitation And the proposed solution doesn't fix that. Most of those people don't have a problem with unexpected expense once a year. They don't budget and are short on cash every month. So now imagine Bob needs money halfway through the month. He takes…

>And the proposed solution doesn't fix that. Most of those people don't have a problem with unexpected expense once a year. They don't budget and are short on cash every month. So now imagine Bob needs money halfway through the month. He takes out 50% of his pay. He uses is for immediate needs and than has to live at 50% of his pay for the next 1.5 month. This is extremely paternalistic and shows how little you autom…

We all need to be treated like children that need help and guidance to some extent at various points in our lives. This is part of being within a broader community and I'm happy to accept it.

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#84

Post by imtringued » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 7:33 AM UTC

seahawks78 wrote: post #51

qnsi wrote: post #30

I worked at a company that was working on this. I left because of ethical reasons. >Workers living from pay check to pay check have traditionally been vulnerable to exploitation And the proposed solution doesn't fix that. Most of those people don't have a problem with unexpected expense once a year. They don't budget and are short on cash every month. So now imagine Bob needs money halfway through the month. He takes…

We need universal basic income (UBI)! Period. I believe that in a country like US every working adult (18 - 64) should get a minimum of 5k a month for paying basic expenses. Furthermore, Payflow should be integrated with the government UBI program so that anyone can withdraw money against it similar to what is being done now. This will go a long way in solving the Payday problems/worker exploitation issues as mention…

Well, I am in favor a negative income tax funded by taxes on regressive behavior.

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#85

Post by imtringued » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 7:36 AM UTC

seahawks78 wrote: post #57

hpkuarg wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, $5k a month for "basic expenses" is beyond ridiculous.

I don't think it is especially if you are living in one of metro regions/tech hubs i.e. SF Bay area, Seattle, NYC etc.

Those are places that force poor people out because not everyone can live there. What kind of logic makes you believe that every single individual should obtain the right to live there for free? There is a reason why those places are expensive, because a huge amount of people wants to live there.

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#86

Post by imtringued » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 7:46 AM UTC

seahawks78 wrote: post #76

gruez wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number itself as it pertains to cost of living isn't ridiculous, but the implied policy proposal of "let's give everyone $5000 so people in high CoL areas can cover their basic expenses!" is ridiculous. The #1 cause of high CoL in those areas is because it's a desirable place to live and there are more people who want to live there than there are housing units, so people bid up the price. Giving everyone $5000 wo…

No I didn't mean blanket 5k to everyone. It could very well be dependent on the place you live. 1k - 5k might be an acceptable range. If you live in NYC you get more, rural Alabama may be not so much. But you get the idea. Assuming that not everyone can be successful in life (in spite of having boatloads of IQ + work ethic) UBI might be one of the few ways left to reduce generational in-equality. Don't get me wrong -…

>It could very well be dependent on the place you live.

Then it would have to be funded with local taxes. Why should people with a median salary pay taxes so that someone can get a UBI that is higher than the median salary?

>Assuming that not everyone can be successful in life (in spite of having boatloads of IQ + work ethic) UBI might be one of the few ways left to reduce generational in-equality.

Or you could just get rid of money hoarding and land hoarding. Just think about it. The time people spend unemployed or underemployed is gone but the money isn't. Thus the value of the claim to labor (money) is greater than what the economy can support. The inevitable result is inequality just from a pure logical perspective. The conventional solution had been to just let the economy grow endlessly so that the economy becomes strong enough to support all the freeloaders. Alternatively you let inflation act as a soft default on that unsustainable claim to labor.

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2019/08/27/754323652/the-...

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#87

Post by imtringued » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 7:56 AM UTC

Grustaf wrote: post #60

asukhwani wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our average user in Spain withdraws 50$, but their monthly salary is >1,000$. We also regularly survey users to see chat reasons they make withdrawals for. Our conclusion is users are taking small portions of their salary to cover unexpected expenses. Users tell us they love this, because otherwise they would have had to ask a friend for money.

In that case, wouldn’t the real solution to their plight be to learn to save money? I know that is part of your offering, but your main product contradicts it completely, doesn’t it? Easy borrowing does not seem to promote saving.

>In that case, wouldn’t the real solution to their plight be to learn to save money?

That is not something you learn. You just sit in your house and wait for the paycheck to come in. I have never learned to save money. It just happens to me.

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#88

Post by arcturus17 » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 8:39 AM UTC

zo1 wrote: post #83

gotostatement wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And the proposed solution doesn't fix that. Most of those people don't have a problem with unexpected expense once a year. They don't budget and are short on cash every month. So now imagine Bob needs money halfway through the month. He takes out 50% of his pay. He uses is for immediate needs and than has to live at 50% of his pay for the next 1.5 month. This is extremely paternalistic and shows how little you autom…

We all need to be treated like children that need help and guidance to some extent at various points in our lives. This is part of being within a broader community and I'm happy to accept it.

I hope you’re joking.

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#89

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 8:48 AM UTC

SimonPStevens wrote: post #58

This still seems no different from giving the employee a payday loan (admittedly at zero percent interest). It's not going to solve anything because they are just taking money early that they will need next month. It might seem attractive initially, but within a few months the status quo will have reset and those employees who were living paycheck to paycheck will still be living paycheck to paycheck, just now it wil…

[deleted]

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#90

Post by naturalauction » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 10:31 AM UTC

As interest rates are low atm (or even negative) it might not be an issue but why wouldn't employees take out the maximum loan every month (as they are not paying for the loans) and put that money in a bank account. Is this a risk you have considered and does the employer pay more if employees are doing that?