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Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

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Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#81

Post by joelbluminator »

mola wrote: post #39

All of Netanyahu's allies in the world seem to have profited from this relationship by obtaining military grade surveillance inorder to suppress human rights of journalists and opposition. This is Netanyahu's legacy, a proto dictator, arming dictators. I'm convince pegasus was used against Israeli journalists, opposition leaders and law enforcement officials. Too bad our political system is still under his thumb and…

Hungary aside, most of Israel's allies in the region are dictatorships, actaully all of them: Egypt, Jordan, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Morocco (arguably, let's agree it's not a liberal democracy) and so on and so on. There are zero democracies in the area. So it's easy to see Israel's interest in supplying technology to those regimes and assuring good relations; it's not like the oppositions to these dictators are any better, the Muslim Brotherhood is appalling. Now Hungary isn't really important to Israel and is part of the EU, may have been wiser to not do that.

> This is Netanyahu's legacy, a proto dictator, arming dictators.

Isn't the U.S selling arms to Saudi Arabia?

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#82

Post by bkovacev »

xiphias2 wrote: post #3

Orban used EU money to take total control of the country (media, poor voters). If EU lets China come into Hungary, it will backfire for the whole EU in my opinion.

China has already targeted Serbia and Montenegro - infrastructure mainly. I can't find the source now, but I have heard they already started investing in Hungary.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#83

Post by rorroe53 »

bwb wrote: post #11

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more. I keep reading about the North American Allia…

There are many practical problems to actually implementing this idea.

First, money. Some parts of the EU are way richer than others, with superior welfare systems. If every EU citizen is to be truly equal, then that would mean same standards of government services and welfare everywhere, which would be costly to the richer states. Of course, alternatively we could lower standards everywhere, but that's not good for people.

Then there's cultural, economic, geolocial differences in general, higher corruption in many members states of east/south... Plenty of things to consider. Leaders in some parts of the EU really won't understand the situation in other parts, which makes any kind of centralized government problematic. Perhaps a very decentralized model could work though, but then again that's not much different from what we have now.

Also, nationalism is hardly "an ancient mentality". Healthy nationalism, a common idea and identity is something pretty much all well-functioning countries have. United States of Europe would never work without a common European identity, and controlled outer borders. Cultural differences between different parts of the world are still way too large for anything like democratic one world government to work.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#84

Post by dessant »

jsbdk wrote: post #80
dessant wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what's important is respecting human rights, not ideological affiliation, and in that sense Hungary has noticeably regressed in the past decade.

"human rights" is a liberal construct.

I guess you will change your views about human rights when you and your family will be the ones being specifically targeted by your own government.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#85

Post by biscotte_ »

bwb wrote: post #11

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more. I keep reading about the North American Allia…

So if the concept of nation is ancient why do you want to create an EU... nation ????

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#86

Post by praptak »

paganel wrote: post #32
poisonborz wrote: post #28

If there is one single lasting international effect of Orbán and his party, it's how he demonstrated how EU is completely helpless against rouge states (as well). The delicate political balance of its parliamental politics make it impossible to react to any complex, even if lethal threats. The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime in its own heartland for a decade now, and all they can do are angry notices an…

> The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime Afaik Orban's party has won the last rounds of elections pretty conclusively, with no fraud allegations involved (unlike what currently happens in the US, I'm talking about election fraud allegations). What's with this "Belorussian-style regime" nonsense?

"Afaik Orban's party has won the last rounds of elections pretty conclusively"

AFAIK Lukashenko also has some no-fraud elections under his belt. You don't need an election fraud to go from a democracy to a dictatorship.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#87

Post by emteycz »

tiborsaas wrote: post #76
ReptileMan wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Sure, liberal is an umbrella term. Instead, imagine a country where we let people live their life however they want, do whatever they want to their bodies and think for themselves. This is not Hungary and we are heading towards the opposite direction.

Which country in EU is like that? I don't know of any. And there are much worse counter-examples than Hungary.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#88

Post by hyper_dynamics »

Hokusai wrote: post #60
poisonborz wrote: post #28

If there is one single lasting international effect of Orbán and his party, it's how he demonstrated how EU is completely helpless against rouge states (as well). The delicate political balance of its parliamental politics make it impossible to react to any complex, even if lethal threats. The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime in its own heartland for a decade now, and all they can do are angry notices an…

> EU is completely helpless against rouge states There is a point where politics depend on good intent. It does not matter if it is the EU, USA or China. If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. The main defense against this situation is that it does not work to improve citizens lives. It only benefits a small part of society and it will mak…

They should be expelled, but that's not possible. So the EU is indeed kinda helpless against member states gone rouge

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#89

Post by biscotte_ »

blocked_again wrote: post #27
reader_mode wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Because outside of your bubble nobody wants this. A random person from Bulgaria is going to have a very different culture from a random person from Netherlands. What do you think happens with power in such conglomerate ? If you want to see what happens when you create a forced conglomerate of different nations (but still more simi…

India does this already. With 3x more population and probably has much more diversity and cultural differences than EU.

India and USA are often cites as examples of federations than EU should look to implement but that comparison is not valid.

The US were a blank page, with roughly the same crowd starting with the same common goal and aspirations. Europe comes with 15centuries of nationlike structures and history. Latin and AngloSaxons have very different approaches on life and work (particularly visible in the “PIGS” recent controversy...).

As someone said, you cant make the european omelette with nations hard boiled eggs.

The mere facts that the euro bank notes has zero european symbol (because they couldnt find one) speaks for itself. So they put bridges and windows... India has Gandhi.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#90

Post by johnnycerberus »

nix23 wrote: post #52
underscore_ku wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU is as helpless as USA. what would US of A do with a rogue Texas? nothing

The EU is not a state...thank god for that, and that it never happens.

But it can be a federation of states. Hopefully, that will happen.
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