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Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

nytimes.com

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Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#81
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fifth grade, my science teacher asked me if I'd copied answers off the boy who sat in front of me, even though my grade average was 20 points higher than his. In sixth grade, my math teacher was well known to favor the boys in the class and would only call on me if I was the only one with my hand raised. In eighth grade, another teacher chose two boys to represent the school at a math competition even though I had…

which is all true and good, but doesn't change the fundamental unfairness that it ranges from discouraged to taboo to say something like "Guy power!" or "Yeah, go men!" how many bright men are internalizing messages detrimental to their education and career choices? maybe a little guy power would help them keep going in the face of subtle etc.

I don't really think majoritarian pride is as uplifting or fun as pride in achieving well despite being part of a disadvantaged minority.

However, we should get rid of majoritarian shame/guilt, of course.

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#82

I didn't read the article in is entirety, but one line popped out at me, where one of the finalists says something like "Yeah! Girl power!" Am I the only one who feels like, although men may 'dominate' the hard sciences, one of the reasons (among many others which I won't discuss) why girls may succeed at stages like this is because of the encouragement from a "girl power!" (perhaps, underdog?) mentality? If boys won…

If boys won and went with "guy power!" they would simply be accused of being sexist or even misogynist rather than fair-minded, or intrinsically motivated. Yes. First thing that popped into my head when I read that too.

That sort of cheer doesn't make any sense, though. Guys aren't usually the losers of science fairs.

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

which is all true and good, but doesn't change the fundamental unfairness that it ranges from discouraged to taboo to say something like "Guy power!" or "Yeah, go men!" how many bright men are internalizing messages detrimental to their education and career choices? maybe a little guy power would help them keep going in the face of subtle etc.

I don't really think majoritarian pride is as uplifting or fun as pride in achieving well despite being part of a disadvantaged minority. However, we should get rid of majoritarian shame/guilt , of course.

I honestly don't see why we don't get rid of this sort of group pride altogether.

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As discrimination trends towards zero -- which I believe it is -- it's hard not to feel frustrated that cheer leading (pun not intended) is acceptable on one side but not the other. I guess our fundamental difference is how much discrimination we believe remains. You seem to think the disparity is small, justifying your frustration with female solidarity. I think the it is still very large. Most areas where men are…

Alternative hypothesis: Perhaps the social safety net steps in for women before they are driven to violent crime? On topic: I wish both genders would quit moralizing and start negotiating already. I can only feel so guilty before I stop listening.

> Perhaps the social safety net steps in for women before they are driven to violent crime?

I can't think of any reason to believe this is the case, nor have you offered any evidence, so I'm going to tentatively reject this hypothesis.

> quit moralizing and start negotiating already . . .

I have no idea what you mean by this. "You guys stop discriminating against us in the workplace and we'll let you down easier when you proposition us on the street?" Something like that?

Re: your feelings of guilt: you probably don't need to feel guilty unless you are exploiting your privilege. Just being aware of it, not being a jerk, and not accepting it when other men act like jerks is all that's needed most of the time.

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really think majoritarian pride is as uplifting or fun as pride in achieving well despite being part of a disadvantaged minority. However, we should get rid of majoritarian shame/guilt , of course.

I honestly don't see why we don't get rid of this sort of group pride altogether.

Well, when there is greater equality, this sort of group pride would naturally disappear. A small price to pay for getting rid of inequality.

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternative hypothesis: Perhaps the social safety net steps in for women before they are driven to violent crime? On topic: I wish both genders would quit moralizing and start negotiating already. I can only feel so guilty before I stop listening.

> Perhaps the social safety net steps in for women before they are driven to violent crime? I can't think of any reason to believe this is the case, nor have you offered any evidence, so I'm going to tentatively reject this hypothesis. > quit moralizing and start negotiating already . . . I have no idea what you mean by this. "You guys stop discriminating against us in the workplace and we'll let you down easier when…

You've given about as much evidence for your hypothesis as I have mine. We're just bullshitting on the internet here. Anyways, for what it's worth, I buy your hypothesis (men are just violent people who kill each other more than women do) as well as mine (people are more likely to lend a helping hand to women in desperate straits).

I have no idea what you mean by this. "You guys stop discriminating against us in the workplace and we'll let you down easier when you proposition us on the street?" Something like that?

Not quite so flippant, but more or less. Women have a lot of leverage, they're half the population after all. A more unabashedly self-interested agenda would be a breath of fresh air (and possibly more effective).

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#87
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that while discrimination is still significant in the US. IMO, the magnitude of net discrimination is fairly small. It’s not hard to find cases where men have an advantage. However, being a Man is a horrible disadvantage in child custody battles. In the eyes of the law when two drunken people have sex it’s often assumed that the man took advantage of the situation etc. Men receive less support in cases…

However, being a Man is a horrible disadvantage in child custody battles. Citation needed. From what I've read, men who choose to contest custody, usually win. That's because he's likely making more money and is therefore in a better financial position to take care of the children. Women usually get custody because men don't usually contest it. That's not to say that it doesn't come up. But men often trade the threat…

Without going into the rest, I would note that even if you're right, you haven't refuted onemoreact. If it is ”known” that men are at a disadvantage in custody battles, you might expect men to only contest if they had significant other advantages.

P(male wins | male is richer) != P(male wins)

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#88
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, since it wasn't clear, my use of "you" in that last bit was rhetorical. Wasn't intending to address anyone in particular, sorry about that. But since you mention yourself, sure, let's talk that— What would you make of a heterosexual, cisgendered man saying that he doesn't really think people with non-standard gender identities are discriminated against? Again, that's not a taboo thing to say. He's not speaking…

>What would you make of a heterosexual, cisgendered man saying that he doesn't really think people with non-standard gender identities are discriminated against? So now that I'm a member of an "unprivileged" viewpoint, I'm granted the privilege of determining what constitutes ignorance and privilege in other people--you granted it directly by asking me. In this way you are propagating the inequality of privilege. It…

That's certainly a coherent position, but I feel you're talking past me. To wit:

So now that I'm a member of an "unprivileged" viewpoint, I'm granted the privilege of determining what constitutes ignorance and privilege in other people--you granted it directly by asking me.

You misunderstand. I don't want you to make a determination because you are a member of the oppressed class; I know the answer, and if you had agreed with the hypothetical man's opinion I would have said that you are wrong as well. Discrimination can be documented objectively.

I was trying to illustrate that members of the oppressed class are always more acutely aware of their oppression than oppressors are, it's just natural. Likewise, with my farcical "shot in the dark"— of course it wasn't a shot in the dark, I was playing the odds. If we suppose that women are oppressed, then someone who doesn't believe women are oppressed is likely not a woman.

For what it's worth, I do agree with the statement that "We're moving towards equality pretty well, overall"— so much so that I wouldn't have put down too much money on ricefield being a dude, because I do actually know quite a few women who don't believe that there is meaningful gender inequality anymore. They are universally in my age group or younger, in high school or college, from middle-class families, and white.

They do in fact live in an environment where sexism is mostly about silly things. Now, I think that's awesome. But they're wrong.

Anyway, to take this all back around: The privileged tend not to recognize that they are privileged. It doesn't make you a bad person, it's just not something people notice. (It's still unclear to me if this is something you disagree with?)

If you want an analogy which doubles as an example: In a relationship, when the man thinks he and his partner share housework roughly equally, the woman tends to think that she is doing much more housework than the men. Statistically speaking, the woman in this case is objectively right; the man is likely doing much less than his share of the housework. He just doesn't realize it. If you ask me, it behooves a man not to rely on his perception of how much housework he is doing, because he knows that that perception is likely to be skewed. (Note that I'm not saying couples should necessarily share housework equally; these are men who want to, and think they are, but are not.)

So, likewise, the only thing I'm trying to say here is that if you find yourself thinking, "Hmm, that previously oppressed group seems pretty equal now" that your next thought should be "but then on the other hand I wouldn't expect to notice latent discrimination if it does exist, so maybe I should look into it a little bit closer." Not because you don't get the right to say things are equal if they are; just because they probably aren't.

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#89
post #87
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, being a Man is a horrible disadvantage in child custody battles. Citation needed. From what I've read, men who choose to contest custody, usually win. That's because he's likely making more money and is therefore in a better financial position to take care of the children. Women usually get custody because men don't usually contest it. That's not to say that it doesn't come up. But men often trade the threat…

Without going into the rest, I would note that even if you're right, you haven't refuted onemoreact. If it is ”known” that men are at a disadvantage in custody battles, you might expect men to only contest if they had significant other advantages. P(male wins | male is richer) != P(male wins)

I did not claim to have refuted onemoreact's claim. However I made it clear that that particular claim needs more support and isn't exactly obvious.

That said anyone quoting statistics should be able to back them up. I encountered the custody figure, along with a lot of other useful information about how the results of divorce are harder on women than men, in http://www.amazon.com/Price-Motherhood-Important-World-Value.... It is an interesting read, though not exactly the sort of thing you want your wife to encounter during her first pregnancy. (Which is how I learned about that book...)

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#90

I didn't read the article in is entirety, but one line popped out at me, where one of the finalists says something like "Yeah! Girl power!" Am I the only one who feels like, although men may 'dominate' the hard sciences, one of the reasons (among many others which I won't discuss) why girls may succeed at stages like this is because of the encouragement from a "girl power!" (perhaps, underdog?) mentality? If boys won…

If boys won and went with "guy power!" they would simply be accused of being sexist or even misogynist rather than fair-minded, or intrinsically motivated. Yes. First thing that popped into my head when I read that too.

If boys won a limbo contest they may say that. And likewise, women probably aren't likely to say such a thing at a limbo contest.
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