There's a guy in Montana called Paul Wheaton who spent the last 6 years building soil rich in organic matter using no chemicals (pesticides & biocides) in his 200 acre plot of land. There were giant hugelkultur beds 15 ft high it was a crazy sight. He believes that in a decade the soil will be so rich in organic matter with healthy microbial activity (with no chemical history) could produce food that cures cancer. I…
Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies
81–90 of 297 posts
Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies
#82What is the best criticism of regenerative ag? Everything I see about it is so positive that it seems crazy everyone hasn't switched. Are there really no downsides and it's just institutional inertia/caution holding everyone back?
The key criticism is that it yields less, so it doesn't scale. Furthermore, it generally lacks uniformity, so you can't automate either.
Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
No-till agriculture, as an example, usually requires different capital equipment for the farm. It's not a blocker, but financing the capital equipment takes some investment and risk. Farms are fairly dialed into their operations already, and getting people to change (especially when they need to pay money to do it) is a slow process.
So then is it reasonable to conclude government subsidies for regenerative agriculture could increase adoption?
Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think I read that many farmers are required to use them by contract. If that's the case then a lot of farmers don't have that luxury.
No, just no. This is 100% false. You are not required to use ANY chemical on ANY crop in the united states. It's it 100% a voluntary decision. Why so many people make the decision to use these chemicals is another discussion. Chemicals like roundup where so effective they changed agriculture production in unforeseen ways (like we lost institutional knowledge on how to successfully grow crops without them). The fact t…
And some of those changes were significant positives not only for agricultural productivity, but also for the environment. The biggest of these is the reduced or eliminated tillage... tilling the soil several times a year with heavy machinery was the biggest contributor to soil degradation and even outright soil loss.
First, after tilling, some of the soil literally blows away with the wind. Second, organic residue in freshly tilled soil decomposes rapidly to CO2 and Methane, versus healthy untilled soil where a significant portion of it would decompose to long-term stable humic and vulvic substances... so we have a double negative where we're increasing the global warming contribution and decreasing the capacity of the soil for retaining nutrients.
I've dabbled in farming, and I'm no fan of glyphosate, and certainly not of Monsanto, but I think it's important to point this out because certain knee-jerk reactions, like "ban glyphosate" by themselves are only likely to make things worse. If you ban glyphosate for example, one of two things is likely to happen... 1) it will be replaced by even worse chemicals, or 2) people go back to frequent tilling. There are no quick fixes to industrial agriculture, the only solution is to move toward highly integrated regenerative approaches, and these are by their nature much more complex and labor intensive. It's great that there are more and more people doing that, but big ag keeps them operating at the margins of our food supply.
Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies
#85Is there an economic argument to be made for increasing the amount of money spent in the local economy? I often hear it cited as a benefit in situations like this, and it has a certain feel-good quality to it, but instinctively it feels like it means people pay higher prices: if you're buying seed from the local seed & feed, it's almost certainly more expensive than if you buy it from XYZ megacorp.
Money given to a megacorp leaves the local economy, leaving the local area poorer, overall. Money given to your neighbors stays in the local economy. A well-off local economy supports more things than a poor one. Local seed & feed shops are a start, but think of every other business that might be part of a small town: grocery stores, bookshops, art galleries, clothing, musicians, movie theaters, children's party ente…
From co-ops to seed dealers, chemical dealers, people to apply and plant these chemicals and seed. Equipment (Deere, Case)...if these people vanished, rural america would suffer GREATLY. Locall replacements for these jobs/companies is not clear to me.
Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
Drip irrigation works best when delivering water directly to the roots of small annual plants. Trees have large root systems, and are planted closely enough that you need to water the entire ground. Perhaps a network of smaller sprayers below the leaf canopy would reduce evaporative losses.
I wonder if there's any benefit to water hitting the leaves on the way down to the soil, i.e. cleaning the leaves. I know indoor plants require cleaning, but perhaps that's specifically because they're indoors.
Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies
#87Has anyone here undergone a soil restoration project (big or small)? Did you happen to blog about the progress? There's so much I don't know, like how you even determine that your soil is degraded, or how you measure progress.
I am doing it on a small and unscientific scale. My soil is silty sand with a pretty neutral PH. I need to add quite a bit of organic material to get plants to thrive. In the past, I'd turn everything over with a shovel each year. This year I went to a no-till method for my annual crops putting down cardboard and woodchips as mulch. If a plant gives me an indication of a deficiency, I will address it. For example, so…
How do you go about determining this? I just built a 400 sq. ft. greenhouse this year, and aside from watching the plants get bigger each day, I'm not really sure how to tell if I'm "doing it right".
Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies
#88Organic and regenerative ag are built on the assumption that crops must be grown in open air soil. The reality is that crops can be grown in open air soil and, if they are, regenerative ag in particular is significantly better for soil longevity. That said it is not necessarily better to produce all crops in low density, high volatility, season dependent environments. Some material % of crops can move to more intelli…
Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
The number is high, but farming in generally is a high risk bet. I often say to people, I need to spend (i.e risk) $100,000 for the chance to make $20,000-$30,000 if everything goes correctly. One major event and you just lost 100K. Scale up or down depending on the size of the farm.
Sustainable farming is a terrible business as long as giant unsustainable factory farms are a thing. If you want to make money farming, you need to either go the vertical integration or agro-tourism route.
This is a very underdeveloped space. The prairie ecosystem is all but extinct. Reviving it and getting tourist to come will be a real thing I believe.
Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
Honestly? My biggest concern about it is that half its advocates say crazy things. For instance, down-thread we got the line: "[Paul Wheaton] believes that in a decade the soil will be so rich in organic matter with healthy microbial activity (with no chemical history) could produce food that cures cancer. I believe that in an environment where human body is not weakened by the constant bombardment of chemical compou…
I've experienced this, and I've learned to search for the grains of truth. At core, the people doing this are highly disagreeable, and so they form their own opinions and go deep. I think going deep into crazy is natural, and the hard question is trying to balance that out with a deeper truth. At core, I think there is a deeper value in being the control group outside of the modern world. So, can food cure cancer? I…