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European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

eci-ubi.eu

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Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#81

Post by colechristensen »

systemvoltage wrote: post #52
wyager wrote: post #16

Most extant forms of welfare exist because at the time of their creation they allowed some group of politicans to buy the votes of some subset of the population. In order to reliably capture those votes, the welfare system has to represent a substantive transfer of wealth from whoever is getting screwed to whoever is selling their vote. From this angle, the problem with UBI is it doesn't really represent a clear win…

I am worried about how cost of living would explode to untenable levels. Low skilled labor prices would get out of control I am guessing since it is a basic supply/demand issue - when you put a floor with UBI, minimum wage to take up manual labor jobs would rise dramatically. It is actually incredible how much of our society depands on manual labor. Most people on HN are out of touch with this reality. The world runs…

The problem is price distortion and that whatever you do, prices will be raised until a section of society can barely survive because essentially enough people tend to make bad decisions and live beyond their means that sellers will raise their prices to whatever the market will bear, and there are always people willing to buy things they can’t afford.

Attempts to shape markets tend to do this.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#82

Post by slg »

wyager wrote: post #72
short_sells_poo wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a political scientist, but it doesn't seem too far fetched? What OP seems to be saying is that it's easier to capture a small but strong follower base with focused effort, than a large (or any) follower base with diffuse effort. If the current social and political climate is any indication, people (at society level) genuinely don't seem to be receptive to efforts of unification and the betterment of mankind.…

> In the US, higher taxes are a very controversial topic, even if they would benefit the majority of the people. I don't think it's certain that it would benefit the majority of people. In fact, I think it's unlikely. One of the tremendous advantages of the US (and why we're so rich compared to almost all EU countries) is that our cultural programming includes the implicit understanding that higher taxes introduce de…

When would you say this cultural identity developed? Because there are millions of people in this country that can remember a time when the top marginal tax rate was above 90%.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#83

Post by FPGAhacker »

slg wrote: post #21
wyager wrote: post #16

Most extant forms of welfare exist because at the time of their creation they allowed some group of politicans to buy the votes of some subset of the population. In order to reliably capture those votes, the welfare system has to represent a substantive transfer of wealth from whoever is getting screwed to whoever is selling their vote. From this angle, the problem with UBI is it doesn't really represent a clear win…

I have no idea if you are right or not, but it is a pretty wild political science theory that a policy can benefit too large of a majority of the population and therefore would be unpopular.

They are talking about dilution.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#84

Post by wyager »

slg wrote: post #82
wyager wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the US, higher taxes are a very controversial topic, even if they would benefit the majority of the people. I don't think it's certain that it would benefit the majority of people. In fact, I think it's unlikely. One of the tremendous advantages of the US (and why we're so rich compared to almost all EU countries) is that our cultural programming includes the implicit understanding that higher taxes introduce de…

When would you say this cultural identity developed? Because there are millions of people in this country that can remember a time when the top marginal tax rate was above 90%.

It dates at least back to the earliest Scots-Irish immigrants to the US. The wartime stuff was an aberration and not sustainable.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#85

Post by na85 »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #70
_ofdw wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>UBI, just another socialist way to subjugate people. Seems preferable to endless wage slavery at the behest of unaccountable corporations run by billionaire oligarchs. If the choice is between driving a delivery truck and having to piss in a bottle versus a UBI and upsetting libertarians, I know which one I'd choose. >When a right requires an obligation to do something by a third party through the use of force by th…

If the choice is between driving a truck (even with the bottle) and the "Maduro diet" in Venezuela, a lot of us would probably pick the truck and the bottle. The failure mode of socialism is really unpleasant. "Wage slavery" doesn't come close. The argument you should be making is why Europe's UBI proposal won't wind up at Venezuela. Calling capitalism "wage slavery" isn't how you do that.

>If the choice is between driving a truck (even with the bottle) and the "Maduro diet" in Venezuela

That's a false dichotomy

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#86

Post by hef19898 »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #70
_ofdw wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>UBI, just another socialist way to subjugate people. Seems preferable to endless wage slavery at the behest of unaccountable corporations run by billionaire oligarchs. If the choice is between driving a delivery truck and having to piss in a bottle versus a UBI and upsetting libertarians, I know which one I'd choose. >When a right requires an obligation to do something by a third party through the use of force by th…

If the choice is between driving a truck (even with the bottle) and the "Maduro diet" in Venezuela, a lot of us would probably pick the truck and the bottle. The failure mode of socialism is really unpleasant. "Wage slavery" doesn't come close. The argument you should be making is why Europe's UBI proposal won't wind up at Venezuela. Calling capitalism "wage slavery" isn't how you do that.

Using Venezuela as an example for socialism is already the first mistake. As is confounding socialism with a strong social state.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#87

Post by zozbot234 »

systemvoltage wrote: post #52
wyager wrote: post #16

Most extant forms of welfare exist because at the time of their creation they allowed some group of politicans to buy the votes of some subset of the population. In order to reliably capture those votes, the welfare system has to represent a substantive transfer of wealth from whoever is getting screwed to whoever is selling their vote. From this angle, the problem with UBI is it doesn't really represent a clear win…

I am worried about how cost of living would explode to untenable levels. Low skilled labor prices would get out of control I am guessing since it is a basic supply/demand issue - when you put a floor with UBI, minimum wage to take up manual labor jobs would rise dramatically. It is actually incredible how much of our society depands on manual labor. Most people on HN are out of touch with this reality. The world runs…

When you make physical labor more expensive, it gets automated out of existence. And the part that can't be automated away gets reassessed to improve work conditions and make it more convenient to pursue that line of work. This is precisely what you want to happen.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#88

Post by xondono »

bassman9000 wrote: post #66

Reading the main site, or the Spanish one: https://rentabasicaincondicional.eu/ Can't find a decent, detailed description of the proposal. They have an intro video, a translation of the same one in the main page: https://rentabasicaincondicional.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/... which is mostly gross oversimplifications, I suspect, to trigger emotional responses. Around 2:00 they mention funding. Basically, more and hig…

Agreed that it’s too scarce on details.

The obvious problem here is that UBI only makes sense if you take those other programs out (no public healthcare, no public pensions), but it will be unthinkable for most europeans to loose those. There’s no way to sell a change that requires people to take that amount of personal responsibility, especially when they’ve enjoyed life without them.

I also hate that what was a good economics idea has become into a meme, and has been modified in a way that defeats the purpose.

All the current talk about UBI started with people discussing back the concept of NIT (negative income tax), and the on-paper benefits of removing poverty traps from the system.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#89

Post by hef19898 »

xondono wrote: post #88
bassman9000 wrote: post #66

Reading the main site, or the Spanish one: https://rentabasicaincondicional.eu/ Can't find a decent, detailed description of the proposal. They have an intro video, a translation of the same one in the main page: https://rentabasicaincondicional.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/... which is mostly gross oversimplifications, I suspect, to trigger emotional responses. Around 2:00 they mention funding. Basically, more and hig…

Agreed that it’s too scarce on details. The obvious problem here is that UBI only makes sense if you take those other programs out (no public healthcare, no public pensions), but it will be unthinkable for most europeans to loose those. There’s no way to sell a change that requires people to take that amount of personal responsibility, especially when they’ve enjoyed life without them. I also hate that what was a goo…

UBI would replace a lot of existing social security programs, pensions and health care are jone of those candidates.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#90

Post by colechristensen »

spurgu wrote: post #34

Something I've been thinking about is how are addicts and mentally ill detected/addressed in a UBI society? Today it becomes apparent because when you have issues you tend to lose your job and have to join job seeking programs and/or contact social services. With UBI you could just fall through the cracks undetected. Has this been addressed by someone?

Many issues of mental illness and drug abuse come from a lack of stability and ability to reliably meet basic needs.

Some people… have a best possible outcome of at best not contributing anything to society for big chunks of their lives. This is just a feature of humanity. You get the most people out of this situation by taking away the fear of not having enough to exist. A big chunk of people don’t need to be in prison or institutionalized or in elaborate programs to “help”, they just need time and shelter and good food, with enough freedom to pursue happiness in their own way. Drugs, crime, and mental breakdowns always have a component of desperation as cause. You can take that away and help all of those problems without needing to do anything else.

I have known people in social programs to “help” and my god were they terrible under constant threat of losing support and filled with perverse incentives to not try to be better.

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